Chicago Infrastructure Thread (Barrington, Davis: house, wages, taxes)

[Chi-town Native]

I think we need a Circle Line to address the reality that the current model is doing a huge disservice to loads of people who don't work in the Loop. But the idea of having it only go to 1200 W. or whatever is a joke, get it at LEAST to Western (approx) on the west end.

Here's a plan:

Gapers Block: Detour - A CTA Map for 2055

[Chi-town Native]

And in terms of ROI, just getting the cars off the street justifies it. Our air quality is increasingly unhealthy, in a serious, medically-documented sense.

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

I think we need a Circle Line to address the reality that the current model is doing a huge disservice to loads of people who don't work in the Loop. But the idea of having it only go to 1200 W. or whatever is a joke, get it at LEAST to Western (approx) on the west end.

Here's a plan:

Gapers Block: Detour - A CTA Map for 2055

That's not a real plan, its a fantasy.

[Chi-town Native]

No, fantasies are what people have who are too lazy and unmotivated to try and make them reality. Chicago was built by people who did what outsiders said was fantastic and impossible - reversing the river. raising the street grade to put a sewer in, etc.

Now, this might be a fantasy for Oak Park...

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I understand the idea behind transit-oriented development (and how it's a bit like a positive feedback cycle), but I'm not sure there's enough current and future development dollars to make a reasonable return on the outer loop. Again, I'm not from Chicago, so I don't know if the proposed outer loop does actually serve areas that currently or are likely in the near future to justify it. Pardon me for not doing the legwork myself, but does anyone have a link to feasibility studies and the like for the proposed outer loop?

The outer loop (Mid-City Transitway) pretty much goes through low-density (by Chicago standards) neighborhoods without significant concentrations of jobs (except for Midway airport.) Given enough time (decade or more) high-density TODs might develop along el junctions (MCT and Blue, MCT and Green, MCT and Orange). Obviously people trying to go from the SW to NW side would benefit from having a shorter trip, but the amount of benefit per dollars spent might not sufficient (per Federal guidelines) to successfully compete for Federal dollars.

In a different world where Federal funding for transit is dramatically increased (or if Obama pushes for it) it may well get funded. The advantage of the MCT is that most (all?) of the ROW is already in place so construction costs would be (relatively) low. I'd advocate starting it as a dedicated bus-way with potential conversion to heavy rail if enough ridership develops.

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

No, fantasies are what people have who are too lazy and unmotivated to try and make them reality. Chicago was built by people who did what outsiders said was fantastic and impossible - reversing the river. raising the street grade to put a sewer in, etc.

Now, this might be a fantasy for Oak Park...

I think any new rapid transit will be constructed along existing ROWs. Luckily Chicago is blessed to have numerous under-utilized ROWs. Building a bunch of subway lines while totally cool and awesome are probably not fiscally justifiable. Maybe if we had NYC density, but we don't. Fantasies are great to have, but let's keep at least one foot grounded in reality.

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I understand the idea behind transit-oriented development (and how it's a bit like a positive feedback cycle), but I'm not sure there's enough current and future development dollars to make a reasonable return on the outer loop. Again, I'm not from Chicago, so I don't know if the proposed outer loop does actually serve areas that currently or are likely in the near future to justify it. Pardon me for not doing the legwork myself, but does anyone have a link to feasibility studies and the like for the proposed outer loop?

It's success depends on the amount of headway along the line. If service runs every 5 minutes or so during peak times, there are three destination points already along the route (the heavily congested North/Clybourn corridor, the United Center, and the Medical district). Then there's also the benefit of increased density along Ashland, which is now basically the western border of the gentrified West Loop, as well as Pilsen.

Durbin requested an earmark for funding the completion of the feasibility study in March.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

I think any new rapid transit will be constructed along existing ROWs. Luckily Chicago is blessed to have numerous under-utilized ROWs. Building a bunch of subway lines while totally cool and awesome are probably not fiscally justifiable. Maybe if we had NYC density, but we don't. Fantasies are great to have, but let's keep at least one foot grounded in reality.

Public transit is an INVESTMENT. It isn't ever going to be fiscally justifiable in the sense that it makes money on paper - the CTA is heavily subsidized right now, and for good reason - the overall benefits to society from public transit far outweigh the costs.

Here's some additional reality: If you wait to build subway and rail lines until neighborhoods are as congested as the lakefront ones, the cost of land acquisition goes through the roof.

How much did that platform retrofit expansion for the brown line end up costing again? $500 million?

I personally think that line needed an extra track, if not two, to make the project worthwhile - right now the Purple Line essentially cannibalizes service for City residents, which is just wrong. It shouldn't be faster to get to the Loop from Evanston than from Edgewater, period.

we have Lake Shore Drive gobbling up eight lanes of traffic right off of the lakefront, there's no reason why we can't start thinking more out of the box for rail in general.

we all know our system is obsolete, it was made for a time when the masses were generally working in the Loop if they couldn't walk to the neighborhood's factory (which are now largely gone).

the City is going to get increasingly more dense, it is just a question of time - we are a hub in the region, we have the Lake Michigan benefit, etc. So IMO we can plan for the future and be prepared for the growth, or, we can get caught with our pants down.

[Chi-town Native]

I meant to add, the models we should be imitating are London, Rome, Madrid, etc. Where you have 4 or 6 level deep subways that blanket the City.

Just imagine what this would do for development...

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

Public transit is an INVESTMENT. It isn't ever going to be fiscally justifiable in the sense that it makes money on paper - the CTA is heavily subsidized right now, and for good reason - the overall benefits to society from public transit far outweigh the costs.

When I say fiscally justifiable, I mean by Federal standards for New Starts. Transit systems compete for limited Federal funds to construct new lines. The Feds generally seek to get the most bang for their buck, which these days means the Feds are funding predominantly light rail.