The "Jefferson Tap Three" are acquitted. (Chicago, Berlin: living, charge)

[LakeShoreSoxGo]

Originally Posted by dementor

Here you go. Isn't high time to change anything?

If perestoika was possible in Russia, if Patrick Fitzgerald could send two consecutive governors to prison change of the system does not seem that difficult.
What is difficult is to change the general mindset. If I got a dollar everytime I heard " this is Chicago, it's always been like this and nothing will ever change" I would be rich...
Almost like an example of Stockholm syndrom Chicagoans got to love their corrupt governorns and mayors (didn't you coldwine said it yourself that you do not care about corruption in city halls because it is NORMAL?) and enjoy living in a city where excuse for many things is just "this is Chicago!".

Even in this forum, anybody criticizing anything about Chicago, this was funny when Drover was called out on this, becomes a defeatist and Chicago basher

Chicago has always been known to have a corrupt police force. I remember taking a sociology course at Georgetown and having a professor comment about it...random. I don't really think chicago is more or less corrupt than anywhere else, we just understand there really isn't much that can be done about it.

I mean come on you are from new york, no? Isn't this the same place where a black guy pulled out his wallet or something and got shot like 42 times. Those cops walked. Gimmie a break.

There is a strong concensus in this country that when a cop makes a mistake or uses bad judgement that they are given the edge. People attribute "daily stress of the job" and "situations that involve split second action" to these errors. We don't have a death penalty anymore because so many people in that chicago station were tortured in the 80's and so many have been cleared through DNA, yet the cop (former det. burge) still lives free in Florida.

This type of stuff happens all the time and has been going on forever.

[aragx6]

I think Chicagoans who tend to say "That's just the way Chicago is..." etc. do so not because they are unconvinced it could ever change, but more because they have little desire for it to change.

The status quo has been good to many here and the machine tends to get things done -- this is its conundrum and genius all in one. The machine gives both the haves and the have nots just enough to keep them mostly content which allows them to stay in power and win elections over and over.

[dementor]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

That "Aldermanic Perogative" system of making zoning decisions is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. It would be nice to flush out the entire city council. The system is rigged, however. The first thing a serious Aldermanic candidate does is to get their opponents thrown off the ballot by challenging signatures. But we have seen some revolts lately... Brendan Reilly was a welcome change, and I was SHOCKED when he beat Natarus. And that dip**** Beaver's daughter lost on the South Side--but it was to a Jackson.

I could never fully understand the Chicago system but I think the first logical step should be imposing term limits. Pretty simple and makes the politcial situation much more dynamic, more open to change.

[aragx6]

Term limits would be little more than a band aid over the real problem.

[LakeShoreSoxGo]

^^agreed

[dementor]

Originally Posted by LakeShoreSoxGo

Chicago has always been known to have a corrupt police force. I remember taking a sociology course at Georgetown and having a professor comment about it...random. I don't really think chicago is more or less corrupt than anywhere else, we just understand there really isn't much that can be done about it.

I mean come on you are from new york, no? Isn't this the same place where a black guy pulled out his wallet or something and got shot like 42 times. Those cops walked. Gimmie a break.

There is a big difference between a mistake in police work when a wallet is mistaken for a weapon and beating up few guys in a bar and then waving off police cars that came to the scene. There is no way you can attirbute torture to work related stress, though.... New York has an even longer tradition of having corrupted cops than Chicago but the change or improvement is possible.

If you are referring to Diallo (sp?) the whole unit was dismantled after that and these cops were transferred somwhere else. This was a special unit who was always working at night in troubled spots. They screwed up. There is no denying it but it was a mistake.
Taking incidents out of context and throwing them out is easy but most importantly New York which is a big international port and 10M city in the middle of the most denesly populated area in the US (Bosh-Wash), has the same number of homicides as three times smaller and geographically isolated Chicago. Even LA with the border and gand problems has less murders per capita than Chicago! This tells you the most about quality of police work...

[dementor]

Originally Posted by aragx6

Term limits would be little more than a band aid over the real problem.

The real problem IMHO is the general mindset silently approving what is going on... Term limits are a small but necessary step towards any progress and a way to "ventilate" the system a little bit. Of course knowing Chicago fathers would give their synecures to sons, daughter and cousins (Mel, Jackson, Stroger) ) but still term limits give a little more leverage to newcomers looking to make a difference. It's a long way but you have to start somehow... Not instituting term limits however is a sure-fire way to keep the current staus-quo forrever in hopes of a miracle or spirtitual awakening of local leaders

There is a good reason the highest posts in the federal government have term limits, this is one of the traditional "emergency brakes" in democracy.

[LakeShoreSoxGo]

Originally Posted by dementor

There is a big difference between a mistake in police work when a wallet is mistaken for a weapon and beating up few guys in a bar and then waving off police cars that came to the scene.
If you are referring to Diallo (sp?) the whole unit was dismantled after that and these cops were transferred somwhere else. This was a special unit who was always working at night in troubled spots. They screwed up. There is no denying it but it was a mistake.
Taking incidents out of context and throwing them out is easy but most importantly New York which is a big international port and 10M city in a middle of the most denesly populated area in the US city, has the same number of homicides as three times smaller and isolated Chicago. This tells you the most about quality of police work in those two cities.

No both instances were cases of excessive force. Shooting a man 42 times (thats like 5 officers clearing clips, no?) and roughing some people up in a bar. You are right, the case in New York is nothing like this one, it was worse.

It is a well known fact new york has cleaned up its act, under Rudy they had a great cheif and a green light to handle people. We need that. But people have to understand your going to get incidents like this when you "clean a city up'. Didn't the Diallo case happen under Rudy's tenure as mayor?

[dementor]

Originally Posted by LakeShoreSoxGo

No both instances were cases of excessive force. Shooting a man 42 times (thats like 5 officers clearing clips, no?) and roughing some people up in a bar. You are right, the case in New York is nothing like this one, it was worse.

It is a well known fact new york has cleaned up its act, under Rudy they had a great cheif and a green light to handle people. We need that. But people have to understand your going to get incidents like this when you "clean a city up'. Didn't the Diallo case happen under Rudy's tenure as mayor?

You just do not get it....Excessive force? It's a different type of incident altogether, one was an honest mistake on the job, which of course is not to be taken lightly, as you know there was a grand jury trial but the other is a clear example of abuse of power (waving of police cars that came to the scene). Of course it is not the same even though the first one resulted in a death and the second in few bruises. Mistakes on the job have nothing to do with a deliberate abuse of power. Agreed?

PS. "Roughing few guys in bar" may seem very unimportant until it is you and your wife or son that's against those cops. 42 shots? Do you know how feel when you see or hear your partners shoot at someone? You shoot too as even a second of delay may mean that you or your partners lose their lives. The cops screwed up but were subsequently cleared by grand jury. People have spoken.

[scottl333]

Originally Posted by LakeShoreSoxGo

No both instances were cases of excessive force. Shooting a man 42 times (thats like 5 officers clearing clips, no?) and roughing some people up in a bar. You are right, the case in New York is nothing like this one, it was worse.

It is a well known fact new york has cleaned up its act, under Rudy they had a great cheif and a green light to handle people. We need that. But people have to understand your going to get incidents like this when you "clean a city up'. Didn't the Diallo case happen under Rudy's tenure as mayor?

aahhh that stuff happened after rudy. and i would shoot a guy 42 times if he tried to run over me with his car