Does Chicago need its own Manhattan? (lawyer, unemployed, buying)

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

The reason that many are hopeful about a manufacturing revival is that most large cities have a HUGE pool of unskilled labor. And the service economy has done little to improve the plight of these people. It's hard to imagine a workable economy where one half of the population flips burgers for the other half.

Indeed, people with a little vision realize a time can come when the laws of economics are trumped by the laws of ballistics and Red revolution knocks on the door.

There is certainly a place for manufacturing here, especially for high quality goods. I recently furnished a 2 bedroom apartment with furniture and furnishings from high wage countries, most of it American made, only one Chinese piece. Many people today seek out American made goods and a manufacturer can hang his hat on that.

In any event if we don't make things here we'll become dependant and those that do (weak), a neat little twist on 19th and 20th Century colonialism doncha think?

Pretty soon we'll be having our lawyering done from India and China. THEN you'll hear a hue and cry for protectionism.

[DC's Finest]

Cold,

When you visit, leave your flannel at home. It's pretty hot.

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Pretty soon we'll be having our lawyering done from India and China. THEN you'll hear a hue and cry for protectionism.

Last time I checked, they'd still need to attend law school, sit for the bar (each state is different) and then buy the proper liability insurance to practice. And then draw up clients.

Not all of us just "punch in"

[softdev]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Pretty soon we'll be having our lawyering done from India and China. THEN you'll hear a hue and cry for protectionism.

First, if you knew anything about how lawyers get admitted to the bar, the idea that we'll be outsourcing law is comical.

Second, the "they're coming for you next" argument has been around since the loom reduced the number of weavers required by an order of magnitude.

Plenty of white collar industries have faced and continue to face similar outsourcing pressures. Here's a hint: If your job can be automated by a machine or easily taught to someone with average language skills - it's going to be eliminated or outsourced eventually. Might not happen for a decade, but it is going to happen no matter what. Such is progress.

Being in the software industry, I know a thing or two about outsourcing. In the mid-90s, when outsourcing started to go mainstream, everyone thought US developers wouldn't exist in a decade. After the tech bubble burst, everyone thought it was the beginning of the end for us. And into the late 00's, people think that software just now builds itself - just need a few Indians to support it.

For all the media hoopla about it, what has ultimately been affected by outsourcing? Nada on my end. I don't know a single college buddy whose job has ever been outsourced. What has been outsourced? A bunch of unskilled low-level positions previously filled by lackeys who latched onto Technology for it's money. The BS documentation, the manual QA, the mom-and-pop e-commerce, etc. have been moved to the hands of different unskilled people, just in another country. Meanwhile, nearly all the high-level development has been further concentrated in the United States more than ever (with props to Israel and Germany).

Nine years after the tech bubble burst, we pay kids a 100k their first year out of college. I don't know many industries outside of Wall Street where that happens. Not a single developer worth his chops lives in fear of outsourcing. Even if your current job eventually goes away, you have enough confidence in your intelligence and craft that you'll be well into the next stage of your career before your job is obsolete.

To quote John Dillinger from this weekend's blockbuster:

They ain't tough enough, smart enough or fast enough

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by softdev

First, if you knew anything about how lawyers get admitted to the bar, the idea that we'll be outsourcing law is comical.

I know how it's done, I paid my daughter's way through law school. And economic pressures can change how it's done. And crafty businessmen will hire lawyers to help them figure out how.

Nice that you're doing well. But we have an entire nation to worry about here. Americans have high expectations and there has to be some mechanism to reward hard work. Not everybody is smart or ambitious but many people are willing to put their noses to the grindstone and they deserve a decent life. If we can't give the average person in this country a nice standard of living we are cooked.

How we're to so is arguable but it needs to happen.

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

I know how it's done, I paid my daughter's way through law school. And economic pressures can change how it's done. And crafty businessmen will hire lawyers to help them figure out how.

Nice that you're doing well. But we have an entire nation to worry about here. Americans have high expectations and there has to be some mechanism to reward hard work. Not everybody is smart or ambitious but many people are willing to put their noses to the grindstone and they deserve a decent life. If we can't give the average person in this country a nice standard of living we are cooked.

How we're to so is arguable but it needs to happen.

If they are not smart or ambitious, then they will not be paid or "rewarded". No one deserves anything, hard work or no. If you work hard on the line of a manufacturing industry, then you will still not be paid well. Your job is just not worth enough.

This entitlement mentality you speak of is just as bad at the bottom of society as it is at the top. I don't know how you think people who essentially offer nothing-- "they are not smart or ambitious"-- deserving to be rewarded for just being who they are is any better than the lawyer who bills at $700/hour "just because".

[Lookout Kid]

It's not an "entitlement mentality" to state that hard work deserves a reasonable wage. I don't think Tom is proposing that an assembly line worker be compensated at the same rate as a heart surgeon.

We've got a LOT of people who are uneducated and unskilled, and who will likely remain uneducated and unskilled for at least a few more generations. You could say that this is not your problem, but leaving these people to just fester causes social issues and crime that affects everyone. The best way to get rid of the welfare entitlement state is to create an economy with jobs for low-skilled workers.

[softdev]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

It's not an "entitlement mentality" to state that hard work deserves a reasonable wage. I don't think Tom is proposing that an assembly line worker be compensated at the same rate as a heart surgeon.

You feel you deserve a reasonable wage just because you work hard, not because you are actually contributing anything of value to anybody. That's entitlement.

I don't work in a tollbooth, so the best corollary I have is when I was in grad school and I worked really really hard on getting one of my paper's published. After a couple long reviews, it was rejected by two journals. A couple months of work down the drain. It was disheartening, but I never once felt I was entitled to get my paper published. By the following year I knew a Ph.D. wasn't for me so I left with a Masters and moved on. Best decision of my life.

We've got a LOT of people who are uneducated and unskilled, and who will likely remain uneducated and unskilled for at least a few more generations.

According to my bell curve, the length of time is forever and not a few more generations.

You could say that this is not your problem, but leaving these people to just fester causes social issues and crime that affects everyone.

I feel safe in my Gold Coast apartment. You see, the math is actually quite simple why this will always remain the case. My high rent prevents the riff raff from living in the area. My ridiculous tax donations ensure that the Chicago mayoral office take care of us - making this one of the safest and cleanest neighborhoods in Chicago. It's a win for me, a win for the city, and a win for everyone in my area.

The best way to get rid of the welfare entitlement state is to create an economy with jobs for low-skilled workers.

Yay, the free lunch theory! Creating (regressing to) an economy of jobs for low-skilled workers is just another Government subsidy (e.g., GM), which is just another form of welfare entitlement. Again, simple math.

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

It's not an "entitlement mentality" to state that hard work deserves a reasonable wage. I don't think Tom is proposing that an assembly line worker be compensated at the same rate as a heart surgeon.

We've got a LOT of people who are uneducated and unskilled, and who will likely remain uneducated and unskilled for at least a few more generations. You could say that this is not your problem, but leaving these people to just fester causes social issues and crime that affects everyone. The best way to get rid of the welfare entitlement state is to create an economy with jobs for low-skilled workers.

I really don't see that, Lookout. I don't see how more low-skill, low-wage jobs in any way helps get rid of welfare entitlement.

I don't want to sit here in my castle and laugh at the peasants, but the fact remains true-- you are paid based on your worth. You compete based on your worth. If you are uneducated and unskilled, what do you have to offer?

Entitlement is believing that one deserves regardless of value. Should we as a society have to support these generations of people who have no interest in bettering themselves or theor children? What really kills me is that if I were to need help, I'd never receive it. Society expects more out of me.

[Irishtom29]

Talk all you want about what you're worth and what somebody else isn't. If you want social peace you're gonna pay for it.

I don't understand why having good paying jobs for low skilled workers is a regression, sounds like progress to me. But some people like to hold the other guy down, makes them feel like they're doing better.

One thing I find funny is that often the people who bemoan that the American working class no longer values a willingness to perform hard work are the same people who themselves are unwilling to value hard work by a willingness to pay for it.

Well anyway organizing is soon gonna get alot easier and then wages will be forced up. Some jobs can't be shipped overseas, getting your coffee at Starbucks for instance. I figure those people should get at least 20 bucks and hour plus benefits and pension. It's hard work.