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Old 10-05-2009, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 102,687,747 times
Reputation: 29966

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyPants View Post
That's like saying we shouldn't support any large scale public works program in Chicago because corruption will be involved. Want to revitalize downtown, hell no, Daley and his cronies will profit from it. Want to upgrade the CTA, no way Jose, Daley will hook up his buddies with contracts. Corruption sucks, but until we root it out, which may never be, we have to go on with our lives.
Except that public works projects are explicitly for the benefit of the public at large whereas the Olympics is not. It's one thing to build roads and sidewalks and train lines that everyone can use, especially where there is genuine long-term need. It's quite another to assume a huge financial liability so that a commercial enterprise can throw a two-week party and then leave us to deal with the detritus in perpetuity. Corruption in the name of the latter is particularly intolerable.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,643,590 times
Reputation: 10453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Except that public works projects are explicitly for the benefit of the public at large whereas the Olympics is not. It's one thing to build roads and sidewalks and train lines that everyone can use, especially where there is genuine long-term need. It's quite another to assume a huge financial liability so that a commercial enterprise can throw a two-week party and then leave us to deal with the detritus in perpetuity. Corruption in the name of the latter is particularly intolerable.

Well said.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 102,687,747 times
Reputation: 29966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
I'm all for a little corruption when it benefits me. Note that "corruption" was the means by which people who lacked access to "respectable" means of gaining favors worked---you know, Catholics, Jews, Immigrants---people who didn't know the bluebloods and so worked out their own system of favors and rewards. Most of the so called anti corruption reforms are anti-democratic and favor the interests of a professional governing class at the expense of the common citizenry.

What's ironic is that the reforms forced by the social liberals changed corruption from a system in which the common man could get a favor to a system where only the connected now get them and now more money is squandered than ever but now through schemes involving tax breaks, development and the privatization of city services. My father was a regular guy but because he was a solid Democrat the city sent crews out to remove a tree from his yard and run a gas line for him. You wouldn't see that today.

But the big shots still get their's but because now they have to hide it they can't take care of the little guy; we must now have the appearance of honesty.
I'd buy the "just a way for the disenfranchised to gain favors" story if those disenfranchised groups had then opened up the system once they got a foothold in the halls of power instead of turning it into a group-identity spoils system that disenfranchised the subsequent waves of immigrants/disadvantaged/underclass/etc.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:29 PM
 
3,674 posts, read 8,624,848 times
Reputation: 3085
Corruption is inevitable in any system run by humans. Perhaps dogs would do it better. But as it is, we're going to have systems worked by people who allocate resources and time to others based not on the standards of their job but rather on personal preference.

I'm more or less alright with corruption. One has to be. Anti-corruption squads rarely succeed, and to a certain extent corruption does allow people to gain unfettered access to public goods. Builders bribing aldermen to speed along the approval process is one such example. It makes it cheaper to build a unit without cutting the quality of supplies.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,643,590 times
Reputation: 10453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
I'd buy the "just a way for the disenfranchised to gain favors" story if those disenfranchised groups had then opened up the system once they got a foothold in the halls of power instead of turning it into a group-identity spoils system that disenfranchised the subsequent waves of immigrants/disadvantaged/underclass/etc.

Oh well, I'm not claiming corruption is perfect.
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Old 10-09-2009, 09:29 PM
 
118 posts, read 457,302 times
Reputation: 40
i like having a corrupt city govt
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Old 10-09-2009, 09:30 PM
 
118 posts, read 457,302 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
I'm all for a little corruption when it benefits me. Note that "corruption" was the means by which people who lacked access to "respectable" means of gaining favors worked---you know, Catholics, Jews, Immigrants---people who didn't know the bluebloods and so worked out their own system of favors and rewards. Most of the so called anti corruption reforms are anti-democratic and favor the interests of a professional governing class at the expense of the common citizenry.

What's ironic is that the reforms forced by the social liberals changed corruption from a system in which the common man could get a favor to a system where only the connected now get them and now more money is squandered than ever but now through schemes involving tax breaks, development and the privatization of city services. My father was a regular guy but because he was a solid Democrat the city sent crews out to remove a tree from his yard and run a gas line for him. You wouldn't see that today.

But the big shots still get their's but because now they have to hide it they can't take care of the little guy; we must now have the appearance of honesty.

amen
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:25 AM
 
4,152 posts, read 7,869,208 times
Reputation: 2727
I've said it before but people will tolerate "a little corruption" in government, as long as things get done. People don't really care if Daley's nephew or other croney is picking up the garbage, only that the garbage gets picked up. Most people understand that there is corruption and influence peddling everywhere in government, not just in Chicago.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Chicago - Ukrainian Village
367 posts, read 912,990 times
Reputation: 114
I ran across this Onion article a few minutes ago. Apologizes if it has been posted before. Just thought it was cute.


City Of Chicago To Modernize Outdated Graft Programs | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:29 PM
 
1,044 posts, read 2,362,168 times
Reputation: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
Perhaps dogs would do it better.
This is an interesting point. Just this morning, I was doing some thinking, and was wondering if indeed, the british system of government might be better. Constituional Monarchies are sort of like a large scale dog-pack. In the pack behavior, the members of the pack acknowledge that the pack leader is just simply the leader, and they accept this arrangement, in exchange for being a member of the pack, which provides safety in numbers, food etc. This is better than every dog trying, in vain, to run his own small "kingdom" but getting no where with it (which is what Americans try to do). In a Consitutional Monarchy, everyone acknowledges that the monarch (who, in theory, owns all of the land and the resources in it; everyone else in the pack works the land for the monarch and in exchange gets to build up some savings and live/exist) is the reason that the whole system exists. And although great abuse has happened in the past, the monarch (pack leader) nowadays lets the commoners run most of their own affairs (hence, the House of Commons), while the royalty is represented in government by the House of Lords, which is an Upper Chamber that can veto legislation that the commoners pass, if they feel that it can threaten their entitlements as the "pack leaders".

This system has worked well (more or less) for the british for many centuries.

However, the BEST system of government is the system used in Switzerland. They have THE best-run and stable government in the world, and although they are a small country, they have almost zero corruption, while at the same time, having univeral free health care that is surprisingly high in quality.

The Swiss have a unicameral government that elects a "Federal Council" instead of a president. The Federal Council acts as sort of a "collective presidency", similar to a "cabinet" structure that we have here in the states, and exists to simply carry out the laws that the national assembly pass. The Council has very weak power, other than running the Swiss national guard, which is used ONLY for defense purposes (Switzerland is officially neutral). ALL male citizens are part of this civilan militia, attend 2 weeks of military training per year, and are required to keep a small arsenal in their home (this has also made Switzerland one of the safest countries in the world, with almost zero crime!) The KEY to their success, is that EVERYONE is actively involved in the issues and in the government. There are some towns that have 'direct democracy", where EVERYONE in the town shows up and votes on the issues! There are no corrupt elected town hall Aldermen. Everyone shows up at the open-air town hall meeting once per month and votes yay or nay on the issues. Works very good.

I foresee a future where the US federal government has been officially disbanded, peacefully, in accordance with the Consitution, and instead, North America is a continent with 60 or 70 small countries that are similar to Switzerland, that have quality, responsive governments.
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