Can $90k buy you a comfortable life in Chicago? (Union: construction, costs)

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by coldwine

I had to seriously think about it, because I wanted to try and explain what repulses me so much with regards to unions and their mentality.

A union is a group of workers forming an organization in order to benefit financially. When investors do that it's called a corporation.

Labor is a commodity, you bargain it's terms as with any other commodity. It's called doing business. You make the best deal you can and then you stick by it until it's time to negotiate again. Sometimes you go up and sometimes you go down. And value isn't determined by you Coldwine, it's determined by the employer, some of whom know more about their business than you do. Everything is negotiated; I suppose your pay is too?

You talk "entitlement", a big right wing code word. Being paid for one's work is no more entitlement than one's being entitled to one's end of a deal. Like when you pay for a car you're "entitled" to a........car.

I think maybe what you don't like about unions is that we're "uppity"; you've expressed contempt for blue collar people before and I think you'd like us to tip our caps to you and acknowledge your superiority, stay "in our place". Heard that before, eh?

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by coldwine

Or I suppose that you can make demands for a modicum of what those things could have brought you in return for offering nothing more than labor.

You labor too.

You sound like you've no respect for hard work in and of itself. No wonder this country is going to Hell, if the leadership class doesn't value work why should the following class?

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

Well, this arugment is pointless in regard to a law firm who makes hefty profits and pays hefty salaries. Such a law firm may do a freebie for a client who is likely to bring a lot of work later, but they are always getting paid for their services in the end. They believe that services rendered warrant a comensurate fee. And while you may not bill every hour of every job, you have a salary that makes up for this fact. A typical union worker does not. You really can't compare your freebie to a guy on an assembly line working over his lunch hour for $25/hour.

Where else on planet earth does an assembly line worker get paid $25/hour, Lookout?

For that matter, where else do people with no skills who screw bolts into car doors or caps on toothpaste even make $1, then organize and demand significantly more?

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

A union is a group of workers forming an organization in order to benefit financially. When investors do that it's called a corporation.

A corporation is a legal entity that establishes the right to issue ownership. It's certainly not for the good of a group of workers. It's due to there being a large number of investors who have no choice other than to follow this particular path of tax-disadvantaged incorporation.

Labor is a commodity, you bargain it's terms as with any other commodity. It's called doing business. You make the best deal you can and then you stick by it until it's time to negotiate again. Sometimes you go up and sometimes you go down. And value isn't determined by you Coldwine, it's determined by the employer, some of whom know more about their business than you do. Everything is negotiated; I suppose your pay is too?

No, Tom. For the majority of people, we suffer rises and falls without any say in the manner. For the educated, there is no ceiling or floor raised on the backs of others. There's just you, the legal entity that pays you well or poorly and the economic situation of the time.

For myself specifically, my salary was tied to performance almost exclusively, in the end. Clients I could drum up, hours billed, office managed... All of it tied to client development. That's how it is for us

The advantage is that you get to move around freely, jump from one rung in the ladder to a higher one and work as much as you need to in order to get ahead. The disadvantage is that your worth is tied to the market. So you actually have to be better than other people, and an asset to the company, in order to succeed.

That's frightening to many people, I know. Life is scary.

I think maybe what people llike you don't like about unions is that we're "uppity"; you've expressed contempt for blue collar people before and I think you'd like us to tip our caps to you and acknowledge your superiority, stay "in our place". Heard that before, eh?

Think of it as amazement. That an entire class of people exist in the United States, which offers the most opportunity of any nation on earth, who consciously choose to remain uneducated and go from unskilled job to unskilled job... amongst the largest and most important research centers in the world... Well. It's like watching someone else throw a tantrum while you think "I would never behave like that in public".

And I realize that not all situations are that easily typecast. I know. But the Teamsters Union is how large, and am I supposed to believe that that many people just... failed to find purpose in life that could be expressed as educated labor?

Really?

And for the record, it's not "blue collar" people I disdain-- far be it from me to judge anyone, but some things I have to try very hard to understand. And when I do, I'm horrified. There's a very large class of Americans who demand, demand demand... and offer nothing. They aren't blue collar, any more than I was. Blue collar denotes education in a different direction.

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by coldwine

Where else on planet earth does an assembly line worker get paid $25/hour, Lookout?

Germany for one.

Reading your post I'm struck at how naive you are about how business is carried on out there. And how little you understand blue collar life. In your entire life you've never sat and talked with a boilermaker or a pipefitter or a carpenter? Like you don't seem to understand that tradespeople actually jump from company to company chasing the dough and also move up the ranks into management. What, you thought guys learned how to run construction projects in college?

I'm pretty typical and I worked as an apprentice, then as a journeyman and then as foreman, general foreman, senior general foreman and as union steward too. Sometimes I'd work a job as senior GF and go out on the next one working with the tools. You don't know our skills so you think we have none. You don't sweat so you don't value sweat, you don't suffer pain so you don't value pain. You act like we're lumps shuffling along, as though we have no lives or aspirations just because they're not your aspirations or your life. It's dehumanizing and you should know where that path leads. You're like Rotwang.

My point about unions and coorporations missed you----if it's a good thing for investors to band together to further their financial interest it's than also a good thing for workers to band together to further their's. What's good for the goose and all that. It's simply good business.

And the guy that screws the cap on a tube of toothpaste is "adding value"---try selling it without caps.

One can argue that lawyers are bunch who rather than adding value to the economy in general are just parasites sucking it dry; high priests of an arcane knowledge they've been clever enough to make indispensible. But I won't argue that because I know lawyers do some good too. And you guys have a union too, the bar association. Gatekeepers. Holds the competition down doesn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if the guy putting the caps on the toothpaste wasn't doing society more good than you are.

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

I'm pretty typical and I worked as an apprentice, then as a journeyman and then as foreman, general foreman, senior general foreman and as union steward too. Sometimes I'd work a job as senior GF and go out on the next one working with the tools. You don't know our skills so you think we have none. You don't sweat so you don't value sweat, you don't suffer pain so you don't value pain. You act like we're lumps shuffling along, as though we have no lives or aspirations just because they're not your aspirations or your life. It's dehumanizing and you should know where that path leads. You're like Rotwang.

If you want to talk about pain, Tom, we can talk about pain. I have a significant portfolio of experiences greater than you would ever believe. And if you want to whip out dicks and compare who's had more agony in their lives, stop talking and get your ass in line. I've got a lot of people behind me.

My point about unions and coorporations missed you----if it's a good thing for investors to band together to further their financial interest it's than also a good thing for workers to band together to further their's. What's good for the goose and all that. It's simply good business.

It didn't miss me, it just struck me how little you seem to understand what a terrible point you made.

Investors "band together" by pooling assets to take chance. Expertise, business plans and significant amounts of strategy go into funding a business venture.

Try doing that when you are not allowed to work overtime. When the promotion structure is retarded by capped hours and pay restrictions and non-competition agreements. Or, god forbid, someone with "less seniority" who can do better than you can. When you can't fire someone for shooting up on the job or showing up drunk to work.

It's a non-compete pyramid scheme. It always struck me as fascinating how unions never compete with other unions-- they couldn't. Try doing that in the business world and see how far you get when your inefficiencies and core values are horrifically under the market.

But case in point, let's take a look at a land where white collar labor is unionized: South Africa. Do you know how many people have died there because of doctors' strikes? Fun stuff

[Hambo]

Originally Posted by coldwine

Where else on planet earth does an assembly line worker get paid $25/hour, Lookout?

For that matter, where else do people with no skills who screw bolts into car doors or caps on toothpaste even make $1, then organize and demand significantly more?




A corporation is a legal entity that establishes the right to issue ownership. It's certainly not for the good of a group of workers. It's due to there being a large number of investors who have no choice other than to follow this particular path of tax-disadvantaged incorporation.







No, Tom. For the majority of people, we suffer rises and falls without any say in the manner. For the educated, there is no ceiling or floor raised on the backs of others. There's just you, the legal entity that pays you well or poorly and the economic situation of the time.

For myself specifically, my salary was tied to performance almost exclusively, in the end. Clients I could drum up, hours billed, office managed... All of it tied to client development. That's how it is for us

The advantage is that you get to move around freely, jump from one rung in the ladder to a higher one and work as much as you need to in order to get ahead. The disadvantage is that your worth is tied to the market. So you actually have to be better than other people, and an asset to the company, in order to succeed.

That's frightening to many people, I know. Life is scary.



Think of it as amazement. That an entire class of people exist in the United States, which offers the most opportunity of any nation on earth, who consciously choose to remain uneducated and go from unskilled job to unskilled job... amongst the largest and most important research centers in the world... Well. It's like watching someone else throw a tantrum while you think "I would never behave like that in public".

And I realize that not all situations are that easily typecast. I know. But the Teamsters Union is how large, and am I supposed to believe that that many people just... failed to find purpose in life that could be expressed as educated labor?

Really?

And for the record, it's not "blue collar" people I disdain-- far be it from me to judge anyone, but some things I have to try very hard to understand. And when I do, I'm horrified. There's a very large class of Americans who demand, demand demand... and offer nothing. They aren't blue collar, any more than I was. Blue collar denotes education in a different direction.

I don't understand how white collar workers are going to continue to demand astronomical wages if the people who buy services and products don't make a liveable wage. If a lare portion of society is making less than 25 bucks an hour who the hell is going to buy all the products and services. [/quote]

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by Hambo

I don't understand how white collar workers are going to continue to demand astronomical wages if the people who buy services and products don't make a liveable wage. If a lare portion of society is making less than 25 bucks an hour who the hell is going to buy all the products and services.

[/quote]

The overwhelming majority of workers do not demand astronomical wages. Some professionals (of both collars) do. And as I said a page or so back, that can't go on.

[Hambo]

The overwhelming majority of workers do not demand astronomical wages. Some professionals (of both collars) do. And as I said a page or so back, that can't go on.[/quote]

Sorry, 14 pages, didn't review, just saw the $1.00 toothpaste caper or whatever. I've worked on both the blue collar and white collar side of things and unfortunately am starting to feel that the bottom 5% of society is no worse than the top 5%. I think capitalism and innovation and risk taking deserve tremendous rewards, but my personal experience has seen individuals who have taken so much advantage their situation at the expense of their workers and society as a whole that I'm reevaluating my perspective. I guess bad people are on both ends of the spectrum and I'm beginning to belive that many successful "bad individuals" are able to rationalize their success in the guise of capitalism.

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by coldwine

If you want to talk about pain, Tom, we can talk about pain. I have a significant portfolio of experiences greater than you would ever believe. And if you want to whip out dicks and compare who's had more agony in their lives, stop talking and get your ass in line. I've got a lot of people behind me.



It didn't miss me, it just struck me how little you seem to understand what a terrible point you made.

Investors "band together" by pooling assets to take chance. Expertise, business plans and significant amounts of strategy go into funding a business venture.

Try doing that when you are not allowed to work overtime. When the promotion structure is retarded by capped hours and pay restrictions and non-competition agreements. Or, god forbid, someone with "less seniority" who can do better than you can. When you can't fire someone for shooting up on the job or showing up drunk to work.

It's a non-compete pyramid scheme. It always struck me as fascinating how unions never compete with other unions-- they couldn't.

I'm talking literal pain at work Coldwine---burns, cuts, broken limbs, broken backs, dislocations, slipped discs, falls, getting your choppers knocked out----stuff like that. I've seen people killed on the job too, that ever happen to you? I was lucky; just burns, some stitches, a dislocated knee and torn knee ligament. I fell 20 feet once but I bounced right back up, I was young.

Unions do compete with each other, especially in the building trades. And we compete with non union contractors too. And it's very easy to fire people, it has to be a just firing though. I've seem lots of people fired and sometimes as a union steward I urged that people be fired rather than get a "one man lay-off". Hell, I was fired a couple of times myself. I wonder where you come up with these stories.

As for overtime, well the contractor can work as many hours as he wants, the more the better I say, people love overtime. But he has to pay, that's business, you want something you pay. Pretty simple rule of business, no? Surely you don't expect people to give their time away? What would Adam Smith say to that?

In any event if some people form a union and if some employer negotiates wages and rules with one, well it's simply none of your business anyway.

[ajolotl]

I really like this post. It shows good perspective.

Originally Posted by Drover

At my last job, the owner had the following cars: A Mercedes G-wagon, a Porsche 911, a Hummer, and a Mercedes SL500. Did I get upset watching him drive those cars? No I didn't, because it's his capital on the line, not mine -- if the fit hits the shan, I only lose my job while he loses everything. Not to mention he was there 15 hours a day I and I was there for roughly half that time. I'm more risk-averse than he is and I place more value on my leisure time than he does. So I traded stability and fewer hours for a smaller paycheck than his, and we both went home satisfied. If there ever comes a day where I'm no longer willing to make that trade-off, I suppose I can start my own business and pay myself whatever I want.