HOV lanes on freeways around Chicago? (Elgin, Palatine: neighborhood, airport, design)

[kyle242]

Originally Posted by chet everett

While it is true that you can't everywhere via transit, the fact is lots of people do rely on Metra or CTA and that makes the roads relatively tolerable -- 10 American Cities With the Worst Traffic - TIME

Adding pavement will that not be utilized except by vehicles that might actually harm the other transit options would be counterproductive -- one more cars with two bozos that both decide it is easier to drive together than taking transit is two less transit users...

The stretches of tollway or expressway beyond the reach of Metra are such a small fraction of total roads that they just don't matter.

I find this argument absurd. Metra does not go from Naperville to Schaumburg and there are no reliable transfer shuttles from Metra stations to suburban work campuses. Chicago is only 2.7 million people but the whole Chicagoland area with a lot of work sites along I-88 and I-90 consists of 9.5 million people!

[Drover]

Originally Posted by kyle242

I agree with you based on current highways capacity, but not if they extended and added one extra line that would be HOV/HOT during rush hours and regular during others including weekends. The purpose of carpool lanes is to move most people, not cars, at minimum 45 mph. In my opinion those would be better than current reversible express lanes on Dan Ryan that are completely barricaded and if there is an accident, you are stuck and can't get out.

Honestly Chicago is one of the most congested big cities in the country and there is no excuse for it to not have express lane. A lot of people work in suburbs where commuter train/bus is not really an option.

Except HOV lanes end up moving fewer people than if they were unrestricted and cause more congestion on the unrestricted lanes, making them ultimately counterproductive. And we do have express lanes on two of the three major arteries into downtown; you even name one of them.

The express lanes on the Dan Ryan are permanent, not reversible. And there's 4 lanes in each direction plus shoulders so you're not stuck if there's an accident. I presume you mean the Kennedy, and even there you're not stuck unless the accident manages to take up both lanes and the shoulder. Caught in a crappy backup, yes. Stuck, no. There's a reason it's barricaded -- so that people don't enter and exit at will, defeating the purpose of making it an express lane. And there's almost certainly not going to be an accident severe enough to block traffic at rush hour because traffic is rarely moving quickly enough to cause a severe accident.

[kyle242]

Originally Posted by Drover

Except HOV lanes end up moving fewer people than if they were unrestricted and cause more congestion on the unrestricted lanes, making them ultimately counterproductive. And we do have express lanes on two of the three major arteries into downtown; you even name one of them.

They don't build HOV lanes anymore, actually now they build HOT or express lanes based on congestion pricing that are set by computers all the time based on monitored traffic (its still free or half rate if 2+ people drive). One could argue just adding another regular line is counterproductive too because it induces more cars and traffic.

[Drover]

Increasing capacity is not counterproductive. Decreasing capacity is.

[kyle242]

Originally Posted by Drover

Increasing capacity is not counterproductive. Decreasing capacity is.

Actually building bigger roads leads to worse traffic.

What's Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse | WIRED

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by kyle242

I find this argument absurd. Metra does not go from Naperville to Schaumburg and there are no reliable transfer shuttles from Metra stations to suburban work campuses. Chicago is only 2.7 million people but the whole Chicagoland area with a lot of work sites along I-88 and I-90 consists of 9.5 million people!

The only roadway that links Schaumburg to Naperville is 355. The specific construction of 355 where it joins 88 would preclude any additional lanes added to that portion. (and the history of WHY this configuration was choosen has much to do with preservation of valuable resources like the Morton Arboreteum as well as access to concentrated commercial space in Lisle-Downer Grove corridor...)

The further constraints of where 53, the northerly non-toll extension of 355, passes over 90 and under the expanded Elgin-O'Hare further preclude the addition of any lanes without massive per mile expenditures.

Realistically that would mean converting existing lanes to occupancy restricted travel and/or tolls.

And that would accomplish what?

The problem with calling others that truly have attended meeting with representatives of IDOT, the Illinois Toll Authority and Metra / Pace where EXPERTS have laid out why HOV/HOT lanes would HURT the regional multi-modal transit system vs just hurling insults is that people who know the constraints understand that some theories are not feasible in our region...

The potential to increase shuttle linkages from Metra to office campuses still exists, and might be a relatively cost efficient way to both increase use of reverse commute rail pattern. Similarly the expenditures that could be justified for things like improvements in autonomous vehicle linkages that reduce congestion would build on work already done by partnerships between Motorola, Northwestern and DOE labs like Argonne -- http://www.transportation.northweste...orkshopWEB.pdf Our region often fails to promote these "home grown" partnerships that then see Silicon Valley or foreign powers take the lead...

[Drover]

Originally Posted by kyle242

Actually building bigger roads leads to worse traffic.

What's Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse | WIRED

Yeah yeah, the "induced demand" argument is nothing new. The fact that it induces increased demand is the obvious result of the fact that increasing road capacity increases traffic capacity. It's a moot point anyway because we're not increasing lane capacity anywhere except out in the sticks between Elgin and Rockford. Everything else is pretty much land-locked.

[Ace Rothstein]

Originally Posted by kyle242

Actually building bigger roads leads to worse traffic.

What's Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse | WIRED

There are a lot of spots in Chicago where capacity doesn't come close to meeting current demand.

[jdiddy]

I'd actually love to see the Kennedy's reversibles become variable tolled based on congestion, with those funds allocated to transit and road projects. But there shouldn't be any HOV component, because HOV doesn't work.

[knitgirl]

Originally Posted by Drover

Yeah yeah, the "induced demand" argument is nothing new. The fact that it induces increased demand is the obvious result of the fact that increasing road capacity increases traffic capacity. It's a moot point anyway because we're not increasing lane capacity anywhere except out in the sticks between Elgin and Rockford. Everything else is pretty much land-locked.

They ARE increasing the number of lanes east of Elgin. Off the top of my head I can't remember exactly how far east, but I think it goes to the River Rd toll or close to there. The problem is that you can't add lanes to the Kennedy and it's already a clusterf*** once you hit the junction with the Edens.