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Old 06-07-2010, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Chicago
35,630 posts, read 53,228,923 times
Reputation: 24002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
It's up to $653 billion now... But that's just the budget for the Department of Defense. We also spend billions more on the military of the past, including a large chunk of our national debt interest and benefits for veterans. Other government departments (such as the State Department) spend significant amounts on our war efforts outside of the Department of Defense. And the current wars have emergency spending measures that are budgeted under $40 billion per year, although Congress has been approving actual emergency war spending closer to $200 million per year. At this point in time, it's entirely possible that military-related spending is over a trillion per year--though you'll never see a number in any OMB document that is comprehensive enough to track these complexities.
OK, the Department of Veterans Affairs adds another 50 billion. The State Department may spend money on our "war effort" but conducting affairs of state is not defense spending. Even if one accepts that defense spending (liberally defined) really accounts for one trillion dollars a year, that's still not anywhere near "over half the budget" like some people are trying to claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
Social Security is supposedly a "trust fund" that is taxed and exists seperately from the budget. But since the participation and taxation are mandatory, I can see how some might consider it part of the federal budget.
The "trust fund" is nothing but an illusory accounting gimmick. The money flows into and out of the federal treasury and the "trust fund" gets shifted right into the general fund. That makes it unarguably part of the federal budget.

Last edited by Drover; 06-07-2010 at 09:44 PM..
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,338 posts, read 4,701,109 times
Reputation: 770
Urza,

Listen to Drover instead of making up stats. Social services are a much larger expense than you are accounting for.


Lookout,

You are smart. I would think you would not be arguing like this, liberal beliefs or not.
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Old 06-08-2010, 06:13 AM
 
Location: EAST-SIDE INDIANAPOLIS
355 posts, read 443,070 times
Reputation: 147
How are you guys going to sit here and dismiss lookout kids budget information. I'd call it denial. Blame the liberals for welfare but completly dismiss and ignore information about where money truely goes in this country.
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Old 06-08-2010, 06:17 AM
 
Location: EAST-SIDE INDIANAPOLIS
355 posts, read 443,070 times
Reputation: 147
Also why do people think the budget got so high, because govt contractors dont have to really bid for defense contracting jobs anymore and therefore can charge whatever they please to build weapons systems and all kinds of stuff. The same thing happens for welfare and all other types of government programs but defense is where it kills us. If we ever get into a war on any real scale at all we will not be able to afford to fight, we will litterally be forced to use nukes because we couldnt pay for it conventionally.
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,338 posts, read 4,701,109 times
Reputation: 770
KrSheely,

I respect Lookout but their numbers are suspect. We are not spending more than half our budget on the military.

Period.

Your broke war strategy and that we will be forced to use nukes is just weird. I suggest you go back to school and take some basic econ and study deficit spending.

I think you are the same person who thought that Wash Sq Mall was a nice place to shop with Old Navy, Burlington Coat and Target instead of the crap it has become since the 80s and early 90s when I used to shop there for Christmas gifts with my church group (they go to circle center now as that area has become too dangerous and rundown, so sad).
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:13 AM
 
Location: EAST-SIDE INDIANAPOLIS
355 posts, read 443,070 times
Reputation: 147
Please don't insult my intellegence. If we were forced to fight a conventional war against a country that could put up a fight in any types of real numbers its would be catostrophic. China could take over a factory and say you will now be producing materials for our war effort, we could not do the same and therefore to build up for this war we would have to pay current prices for our military supplies which are ridiculous. We recently build a fleet of high altitude bombers, I believe less than a hundred of so, for all of our air bombing missions and it cost numerous billions of dollars. We built tens of thousands during WW2. We can't afford to fight wars against insurgents what happens when we have to fight armies that have the ability to take out some of our best weapons, how do we pay to replace them.


Also I never said washington square is a great mall, I just said I'm not scared to go there as its around where I live, though I'm not sure why that has anything to do with my intellegence level.

Last edited by krsheely; 06-08-2010 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:20 AM
 
Location: EAST-SIDE INDIANAPOLIS
355 posts, read 443,070 times
Reputation: 147
Also I'd like to make it clear that I do see both sides of the argument, You will not hear me lie and say that our welfare system is so great and it shouldnt changed at all because it is bad as well but it does not reach the level of abuse that military spending does.

I'm currently a single white male about as middle to lower middle class as can be. I currently hold a b s job that makes hourly wages. I surely struggle without family and doing many things to hustle (legal and illegal) on the side. I get no handouts and free govt programs. But for some reason I dont hold grudges against those that do and need them.

I'd be for national healthcare done correct, and numerous other programs.

But the #1 problem in our country is the military expenses, and the fact that private companies are getting ridiculously rich off our national defense that isnt really that effective.
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: EAST-SIDE INDIANAPOLIS
355 posts, read 443,070 times
Reputation: 147
Also you live in humbolt park, but you are scared to shop at washington square mall that makes no sense to me, though I've never been to humbolt park I cant say but I think it'd be at least just as bad as the east side of indy?
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,338 posts, read 4,701,109 times
Reputation: 770
Default Kr Sheeley

We don't need to build as many bombers as bombs are more targetted and powerful than during WWII. Also, planes have longer range now due to technological advances. I think you also need to go back and study history in addition to econ.

We cannot afford to fight wars against armies. We have too much firepower to do this without destroying the world. I think this is pretty basic.

You are clearly anti-military, which is fine but you need to do more research before entering into a conversation like this.

In addition to undergrad in econ I also have undergrad in history, emphasis on military history, so bring on the discussion.
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:33 AM
 
Location: EAST-SIDE INDIANAPOLIS
355 posts, read 443,070 times
Reputation: 147
I am most certainley not anti military, my brother just returned home from his second tour of duty in IRAQ. I love my country and have considered enlisting.

However I am also a realist, We spend far to much to get far to little bang for our buck regarding the military. Of the limited # of bombers we built if any #'s of them are destroyed we could not replace them in time which would make us very vunerable. I'd have no problem spending however much we need to on our defense if we spent the money correctly, which we don't we waste it and spend it on bs that is to exspensive.

How do you reason giving government contractors like haliburton/raytheon no bid billion dollar contracts?

Sacrifices made by our military are great and I dont like seeing them wasted because the defense industry is now big busisness that robs the govt blind.
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