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Old 06-10-2010, 02:43 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
You are correct that it is impossible to accuratly say who has never actually heard and who hasn't.

You are also correct that Gods power has manifested in all of humanity.

What you are incorrect about is the conclusion and end result of Gods power and determination and unwillingness that any perish.


That is why God has determined that all are saved. No one is without a defense, so all will learn, no one is left apart from Gods instruction to ENSURE all are saved.

I can prove it.

Most over look the distinction made by the definition for thelo and incorrectly use the word desire or wish in 1 timothy 2:4.



G2309 thelo thel'-o
or ethelo eth-el'-o, in certain tenses
theleo thel-eh'-o,
and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete
apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138;
to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014

properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations),
i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be
inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense,
to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward),
intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).



You will note the distinction I highlighted in red. This is to make it clear that the word is more than a wish or a desire, it is an absolute determination by being "strengthened" by a word that means to take for ones self.

When people say that Thelo means a wish or desire they are using the definition from a different word as proven above.

G1014 is NOT the word used in 1 Timothy 2:4 but many argue using it's definition.

What are you attempting to prove other than a use of Symantics and denial? The word means desire simple, straightforward, easy to understand.

This is another typical rabbit hole arguement. You can not prove that which is seperated will be reconciled. Show where those who are cast into the lake of fire are removed. Show where those in Revelation who are outside are allowed in....

Revelation 22:14,15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right of the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But OUTSIDE are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (again emphasis added)

If you can show where those who are outside are called in then you have proven your point. All would be saved. But you can not overcome the fact that those cast into the lake or those listed as being outside are ever allowed in. So what do we do......

Symatics

I will not engage in such things. Again if you remove from scripture without placing it within its whole you can make it mean anything. Now you agree with me as above....

The arguement such as the one used for North Korea is not a legitimate arguement. We can not determine who has heard the message

We agree God's power is manifested in all humanity. As such God has called the world and the words of the original OP are not legitimate. As such there is no excuse. The call has been made.

Now show scripturally where those seperated as goats are allowed among the sheep. As you have no verse to support this you arguement falls short, but also your assessment of 1 Timothy 2:2-4 does as well, for you did not take the complete scripture into account. Your lack of using verse 1 is telling so I will answer it.....

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,

Here Paul establishes we should pray for all men. We should desire all to be saved as God the Father does. A brief example, I may not care much for President Obama if I was a Republican, but as a Christian I should pray for him.

2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet life in all godliness and reverence.

This of course reenforces what I said about verse 1. As Christians we must pray for the lost and even the false teachers! Do you think I am warning you because I want to be right? May it not be. When Im wrong let God judge me and cast me out a liar, but I am not wrong. For I pray ALL will come to Christ, but scripture does not support that all will! But I pray for each of you and you dont even know it.

3 For this is good and acceptible in the sight of God our Savior.

He affirms it is good to pray for the lost and leaders as I have displayed above.

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desires all to be saved, but again you must now show where this will be so. You must deny the seperation of the sheep and goats. You must deny those cast outside in Revelation 22.

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

As such there is one absolute truth. And this affirms it. So if Universalism teaches contrary to scripture then it teaches contrary to God. As such it runs counter to Christ and He will not mediate for you as you declare Him a liar. Again deny the seperation and deny those outside or prove that scripture is incorrect. As you cant find not one shred of scripture to argue otherwise you have to resort to Symantics as you have done in your reply.

6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The due time is now. He gave Himself a ransom for you. But not for your improper citations of scripture. Your false teachings and belief in a lie. Your use of Symatics is not an acceptable system of belief in Him. Accept the full Truth or deny it. The choice is yours.

This use of scripture exhorts us to pray for all including our leaders because it is God's desire for all to know of His truth. But no where does it support your assertions. In effect you have proven nothing and have yet to show those seperated will come together. I applaud your attempt to use the Greek, but Symantics does not deny the literal seperation of the lake of fire, the sheep from the goats, and those named in Revelation 22 I have listed above.

May The Lord God Jesus Christ find you in Truth!
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
What are you attempting to prove other than a use of Symantics and denial? The word means desire simple, straightforward, easy to understand.

This is another typical rabbit hole arguement. You can not prove that which is seperated will be reconciled. Show where those who are cast into the lake of fire are removed. Show where those in Revelation who are outside are allowed in....

Revelation 22:14,15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right of the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But OUTSIDE are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (again emphasis added)

If you can show where those who are outside are called in then you have proven your point. All would be saved. But you can not overcome the fact that those cast into the lake or those listed as being outside are ever allowed in. So what do we do......

Symatics

I will not engage in such things. Again if you remove from scripture without placing it within its whole you can make it mean anything. Now you agree with me as above....

The arguement such as the one used for North Korea is not a legitimate arguement. We can not determine who has heard the message

We agree God's power is manifested in all humanity. As such God has called the world and the words of the original OP are not legitimate. As such there is no excuse. The call has been made.

Now show scripturally where those seperated as goats are allowed among the sheep. As you have no verse to support this you arguement falls short, but also your assessment of 1 Timothy 2:2-4 does as well, for you did not take the complete scripture into account. Your lack of using verse 1 is telling so I will answer it.....

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,

Here Paul establishes we should pray for all men. We should desire all to be saved as God the Father does. A brief example, I may not care much for President Obama if I was a Republican, but as a Christian I should pray for him.

2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet life in all godliness and reverence.

This of course reenforces what I said about verse 1. As Christians we must pray for the lost and even the false teachers! Do you think I am warning you because I want to be right? May it not be. When Im wrong let God judge me and cast me out a liar, but I am not wrong. For I pray ALL will come to Christ, but scripture does not support that all will! But I pray for each of you and you dont even know it.

3 For this is good and acceptible in the sight of God our Savior.

He affirms it is good to pray for the lost and leaders as I have displayed above.

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desires all to be saved, but again you must now show where this will be so. You must deny the seperation of the sheep and goats. You must deny those cast outside in Revelation 22.

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

As such there is one absolute truth. And this affirms it. So if Universalism teaches contrary to scripture then it teaches contrary to God. As such it runs counter to Christ and He will not mediate for you as you declare Him a liar. Again deny the seperation and deny those outside or prove that scripture is incorrect. As you cant find not one shred of scripture to argue otherwise you have to resort to Symantics as you have done in your reply.

6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The due time is now. He gave Himself a ransom for you. But not for your improper citations of scripture. Your false teachings and belief in a lie. Your use of Symatics is not an acceptable system of belief in Him. Accept the full Truth or deny it. The choice is yours.

This use of scripture exhorts us to pray for all including our leaders because it is God's desire for all to know of His truth. But no where does it support your assertions. In effect you have proven nothing and have yet to show those seperated will come together. I applaud your attempt to use the Greek, but Symantics does not deny the literal seperation of the lake of fire, the sheep from the goats, and those named in Revelation 22 I have listed above.

May The Lord God Jesus Christ find you in Truth!
They are OUTSIDE the gate! Yes! But, when is this going to happen? Is it when ALL the ages are wrapped up, or before?

The gates of the CITY are never closed! Those wishing to enter, may enter.

And what kinds of things are they doing OUTSIDE? Sounds like they are behaving badly. Not sitting in a literal lake of fire........Lake of fire is for SPIRITS (Holy spiritual fire can be VERY tormenting!)

What passage of scripture speaks of the END OF ALL THINGS??? Hint: It is NOT in Revelation.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:54 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
GOD IS LOVE. That oughta do it for you. I know it won't, but I'll keep trying.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time." (I Tim. 2:5-6) How many have HEARD of the MESSIAH? And even if they HAVE heard, are their ears OPEN here on this planet? NO!


The LAKE OF FIRE is for SPIRITS! They will be tormented in the presence of the LAMB. WHY?

Revelation is NOT the end of all things. But I'll give you a happy verse from that book, which talks about ALLLLLLL creatures ever made in this universe worshiping the lamb. (You guys REALLY need the BIG PICTURE!)

Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
This post proves you have no concept of what scripture says. Read my post to Phazelwood. Simply put 1 Timothy 2:1-7 is an exhortation for us to pray for the lost because God desires it. It is not a declaration of salvation for all.

Your concept of the Lake of Fire is incorrect. It is for unrepentant, unregenerate man. Those who choose not to accept Christ. It is first and foremost for the Devil and his angels. But it also includes the body and the spirit of fallen man. The first death is a seperation of the spirit and the body. The second death is a seperation from God. When the devil said man would not die he wasnt speaking about a physical death. He had no understanding of what man was. He was speaking of a seperation from God. To many people fail to see this.

Your use of Revelation proves nothing but that you accept Revelation is authoritative. As I can only assume you do then I ask you. Show me where those seperated are reconciled. Show me where the goats are brought back to the sheep. Show me where those listed in Revelation 22:14,15 are brought inside the city.

You are correct Revelation is not the end of all things. There is an eternity afterward. But as your Universalists cant overcome the seperations I have listed above, they resort to Symantics such as Phazelwoods twisting of the word "desire" (Greek word not English) or the Universalists claim to the word "Aion".

The call is out there you still have not refuted my original reply to the OP. God is Love and He is calling you to Him right now. But He has set the conditions for His payment. You must believe His truth. He has declared those who do not believe in Him are guilty and He will seperate the goats from the sheep. Their iniquity is upon them. Will your iniquity be upon you?
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:56 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
They are OUTSIDE the gate! Yes! But, when is this going to happen? Is it when ALL the ages are wrapped up, or before?

The gates of the CITY are never closed! Those wishing to enter, may enter.

And what kinds of things are they doing OUTSIDE? Sounds like they are behaving badly. Not sitting in a literal lake of fire........Lake of fire is for SPIRITS (Holy spiritual fire can be VERY tormenting!)

What passage of scripture speaks of the END OF ALL THINGS??? Hint: It is NOT in Revelation.
Scripture please. Show me where they enter. Not one Universalist has done this yet. They simply declare it to be fact. Show it please.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:59 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Phazelwood, unless the source I quoted is wrong, then we clearly have a word that has multiple meanings. Now if you want to ignore that source and stick with one that supports your view, that is up to you, but you cannot deny that the source I quoted indicates more possibilities than your post considered earlier.

Have you considered other lexicons' entries for this word, or are you going only with Strong's? What about BAGD?

But let's say that, for the sake of argument, you are correct that THELW means "determine." You are still left with the question of the meaning of the word "all" in the phrase "all men." That word, "all" (pantas), can mean "all kinds of," not just "all without exception." Based on this, I think you have only scratched the surface and your conclusion is premature.
Brother its Symantics at its best. This is why I do not engage it, but clearly showed the passage to mean we should pray for the leaders and the lost. 1 Timothy 2:2-4 can be twisted any which way one chooses unless it is taken in the whole. The use of 1 Timothy 2:1 establishes why 2 thru 4 are legitimate. We must pray for those who are not of us. In essence

Love your neighbor as yourself.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Scripture please. Show me where they enter. Not one Universalist has done this yet. They simply declare it to be fact. Show it please.
Both the RIGHTEOUS and the UNRIGHTEOUS are in this place in the end of Revelation. They are NOT being tormented at that time. They are CONTINUING on in their debauchery.

WHEN the adversary and his angels (and those that worship his ways) are being tormented, it is in the PRESENCE of the lamb! You did not answer my question. WHY?

And, the books of the Bible are NOT in chronological order. There are many others in the Bible that speak of the VERY end, when ALL ages are being wrapped up. Revelation does NOT speak of these things. Don't ignore all the other verses in the Bible that speak about the end of the ages.

What does Paul have to say about the END OF ALL THINGS!

There will be NO hidden dark place in this Universe following the restoration. NONE!

God is RECONCILING things in HEAVEN and EARTH to Himself. ALL. Don't ignore those verses.

The below paragraph is from this link:http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/stud...elation_22.htm

9 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this book.

This is a frightening and sobering warning by God that has been ignored by most Christian denominations of today. The translators of virtually ALL the accepted versions of the Bible have taken enormous license with the translations and have changed much of the meaning of Revelation. as well as the entire Bible, with their mistranslations.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:16 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Both the RIGHTEOUS and the UNRIGHTEOUS are in this place in the end of Revelation. They are NOT being tormented at that time. They are CONTINUING on in their debauchery.

WHEN the adversary and his angels (and those that worship his ways) are being tormented, it is in the PRESENCE of the lamb! You did not answer my question. WHY?

And, the books of the Bible are NOT in chronological order. There are many others in the Bible that speak of the VERY end, when ALL ages are being wrapped up. Revelation does NOT speak of these things. Don't ignore all the other verses in the Bible that speak about the end of the ages.

What does Paul have to say about the END OF ALL THINGS!

There will be NO hidden dark place in this Universe following the restoration. NONE!

God is RECONCILING things in HEAVEN and EARTH to Himself. ALL. Don't ignore those verses.

The below paragraph is from this link:Revelation 22

9 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this book.

This is a frightening and sobering warning by God that has been ignored by most Christian denominations of today. The translators of virtually ALL the accepted versions of the Bible have taken enormous license with the translations and have changed much of the meaning of Revelation. as well as the entire Bible, with their mistranslations.
You still have not refuted the seperation of Revelation 22:14. You have not brought the sheep and goats together. You have not shown those cast into being removed from the lake. Again give scripture.

Of course they are tormented in the presence of the Lamb. God who is Jesus is Omnipotent. God will be in Hell as well, but that in itself does not make God the tormenter either. Those who are not of Christ will have only their sins and lack of belief to torment them.

Show me where there is no hidden dark place in this Universe. Again please use scripture. Show me where it says there is not a seperation from God. Again scripture. Bring the sheep and goats back together. Bring those outside, inside, bring those in the lake out. Scripture please.

I do not ignore any verse, but since you have yet to provide the ones I requested I will not answer you on your misuse of reconciliation.

Thank you for using Revelation 22:18 and 19. Now you have another burden. If I am removing or adding from scripture then I must be seperated per Revelation 22:14 for I am now a Liar! I will be removed from the Book of Life, they do not enter the Holy City, and from all things (namely the hope of Jesus Christ) which are written in this book. But again you have proven my point. Those seperated are not brought together.

But you have also proven my other point. Since we know a Hell exists and those seperated are not brought together. And we know that Hell is populated by all evil things to include liars. Then those who lie and deny the obvious eternal words of God found in all 66 books of the Bible will be removed from the Book of Life, they will not enter the Holy City, and their name is not found on the lips of Christ.

But again show where those seperated are brought together. Scripture please.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Scripture please. Show me where they enter. Not one Universalist has done this yet. They simply declare it to be fact. Show it please.
Question: Why are the gates always open?

Revelation 21:25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;

So how is the outer darkness dark if there is no night? And how are disembodied souls still sinning, lying, etc.??

Isaiah 60:11 Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations--their kings led in triumphal procession.

Furthermore, the kingdom and salvation are two separate things according to John's revelation of Christ: Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." (Rev. 12:10)
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:21 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
What are you attempting to prove other than a use of Symantics and denial? The word means desire simple, straightforward, easy to understand.

You try to base your argument over a selected english word which is not a use of thelo in the first place.

Try again.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:25 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
You try to base your argument over a selected english word which is not a use of thelo in the first place.

Try again.
No I must disagree. You must try again. I have shown your missapplication of the complete scripture and why it exists. Please when quoting scripture include the verses that came before it. More often than not it will fix why you are in error. 1 Timothy 2:1 is very important for the next 6 verses.

Or you can believe a lie.

Either way you still have not proved those seperated will be brought back together.

But you have proven my point. When the obvious can not be argued against engage in Symantics.

May the Lord God Jesus Christ find you in Truth!
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