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Old 06-10-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,402,626 times
Reputation: 437

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
You still have not refuted the seperation of Revelation 22:14. You have not brought the sheep and goats together. You have not shown those cast into being removed from the lake. Again give scripture.

Of course they are tormented in the presence of the Lamb. God who is Jesus is Omnipotent. God will be in Hell as will, but that in itself does not make God the tormenter either.

Show me where there is no hidden dark place in this Universe. Again please use scripture. Show me where it says there is not a seperation from God. Again scripture. Bring the sheep and goats back together. Bring those outside, inside, bring those in the lake out. Scripture please.

I do not ignore any verse, but since you have yet to provide the ones I requested I will not answer you on your misuse of reconciliation.

Thank you for using Revelation 22:18 and 19. Now you have another burden. If I am removing or adding from scripture then I must be seperated per Revelation 22:14 for I am now a Liar! I will be removed from the Book of Life, they do not enter the Holy City, and from all things (namely the hope of Jesus Christ) which are written in this book. But again you have proven my point. Those seperated are not brought together.

But you have also proven my other point. Since we know a Hell exists and those seperated are not brought together. And we know that Hell is populated by all evil things to include liars. Then those who lie and deny the obvious eternal words of God found in all 66 books of the Bible will be removed from the Book of Life, they will not enter the Holy City, and their name is not found on the lips of Christ.

But again show where those seperated are brought together. Scripture please.
It is a SPIRITUAL, EVERLASTING fire! WHO is that?

Yes, there will be many outside the gate that did not expect to be there.

These verses below speak of the END of all ages WAY after Revelation.....

"Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all enemies UNDER HIS FEET. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He says all things are PUT UNDER Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did PUT all things UNDER HIM. And when ALL THINGS shall be SUBDUED UNTO Him, then shall the Son also Himself BE SUBJECT unto Him that PUT ALL THINGS under Him, that God may be all in all" (I Cor. 15:24-28).

"For the creation itself ALSO shall be delivered ... INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD!"
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:30 PM
 
696 posts, read 768,557 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Question: Why are the gates always open?

Revelation 21:25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;

So how is the outer darkness dark if there is no night? And how are disembodied souls still sinning, lying, etc.??

Isaiah 60:11 Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations--their kings led in triumphal procession.

Furthermore, the kingdom and salvation are two separate things according to John's revelation of Christ: Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." (Rev. 12:10)
Ahhh again we meet.

As I have stated with the other two show where those seperated are brought together. Show it please.

The Kingdom and Salvation are not seperate. Your use of scripture as always means what you want it to mean, but not what it is.

While Salvation does allow entrance to the Kingdom, one can not enter the Kingdom without Salvation. As such while they have that distinction you can not have one without the other.

Which brings it back to the main point.

Show where that which is seperated is brought back together. Show where the goats are among the lambs. Better yet show a goat that becomes a lamb. Show those cast into the Lake are removed from the Lack. Show these named in Revelation 22:14 as being allowed to enter the Kingdom in effect having Salvation.

Scripture Please.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:32 PM
 
696 posts, read 768,557 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
It is a SPIRITUAL, EVERLASTING fire! WHO is that?

Yes, there will be many outside the gate that did not expect to be there.

These verses below speak of the END of all ages WAY after Revelation.....

"Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all enemies UNDER HIS FEET. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He says all things are PUT UNDER Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did PUT all things UNDER HIM. And when ALL THINGS shall be SUBDUED UNTO Him, then shall the Son also Himself BE SUBJECT unto Him that PUT ALL THINGS under Him, that God may be all in all" (I Cor. 15:24-28).

"For the creation itself ALSO shall be delivered ... INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD!"

Why will you not show those seperated brought together? Why will you not give the scripture to refute what I have said? When you will simply admit it is not there?
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,402,626 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Ahhh again we meet.

As I have stated with the other two show where those seperated are brought together. Show it please.

The Kingdom and Salvation are not seperate. Your use of scripture as always means what you want it to mean, but not what it is.

While Salvation does allow entrance to the Kingdom, one can not enter the Kingdom without Salvation. As such while they have that distinction you can not have one without the other.

Which brings it back to the main point.

Show where that which is seperated is brought back together. Show where the goats are among the lambs. Better yet show a goat that becomes a lamb. Show those cast into the Lake are removed from the Lack. Show these named in Revelation 22:14 as being allowed to enter the Kingdom in effect having Salvation.

Scripture Please.
There won't BE anymore goats! What do you not understand about that?? Are you even reading my posts?
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,443,974 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post

Show me where there is no hidden dark place in this Universe. Again please use scripture. Show me where it says there is not a seperation from God. Again scripture. Bring the sheep and goats back together. Bring those outside, inside, bring those in the lake out. Scripture please.
Heb. 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

So we know that nothing created is hidden from God's sight? How can they then be separated from him?

Jeremiah 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

God FILLS (as in completeness) the heavens and the earth... where else would this hell be? Where are the separated ones? outside heaven and earth? space?

Job 34:22 "There is no darkness or deep shadow Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

Quote:
I do not ignore any verse, but since you have yet to provide the ones I requested I will not answer you on your misuse of reconciliation.
You seem to have ignored the ones above!

Quote:
Thank you for using Revelation 22:18 and 19. Now you have another burden. If I am removing or adding from scripture then I must be seperated per Revelation 22:14 for I am now a Liar! I will be removed from the Book of Life, they do not enter the Holy City, and from all things (namely the hope of Jesus Christ) which are written in this book. But again you have proven my point. Those seperated are not brought together.
Again... if you think the holy city is heaven then those outside of the city are where? Hell? They get to continue to sin without their flesh? How is that possible? And in an earthly kingdom the subjects outside the gates are still subjects of the kingdom.

Why don't you enlighten me as to where these are separated to when it is clear there is nowhere you can be away from God... he FILLS and ENCOMPASSES the heavens and earth.

Quote:
But you have also proven my other point. Since we know a Hell exists and those seperated are not brought together.
I believe you have yet to establish that there is a HELL... which of the four words translated as hell is the real hell? Furthermore, have you met someone who has come back from hell and can give testimony? I just showed you that there is not separation therefore there is no need for them to be brought together. The gates to the kingdom are open always... this certainly doesn't imply they are shut up so that certain people (sinners) cannot enter. They may enter and take some of the living water that flows freely in the kingdom.

Quote:
And we know that Hell is populated by all evil things to include liars.
Do you have factual evidence of this? I would say you have no concrete evidence of hell. This is simply supposition on your part.

Quote:
Then those who lie and deny the obvious eternal words of God found in all 66 books of the Bible will be removed from the Book of Life, they will not enter the Holy City, and their name is not found on the lips of Christ.
Um... I hate to break this to you but the 66 books were not attached to Revelation when it was being composed therefore the verse that says not to add to it cannot possibly have known it would be included and so it is only the BOOK of Rev. that it refers to. You are expanding the text to accommodate your own view but it has always bothered me that people don't see that this book of revelation was circulated amongst the 7 churches it is addressed to before it was ever canonized! It cannot mean all 66 books. That is just a fallacy on your part (and not only you.. others try that as well) to try to prove your point. However the point is moot.

Quote:
But again show where those seperated are brought together. Scripture please.
Can you grace us with scripture that says they are separated by something other than an open gate that is never shut? Otherwise you have failed to show there is a permanent separation in the first place.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:43 PM
 
696 posts, read 768,557 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
There won't BE anymore goats! What do you not understand about that?? Are you even reading my posts?
Im reading your posts? Now your saying there are no more goats. Show me where those who are goats cease to be goats.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,443,974 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
There won't BE anymore goats! What do you not understand about that?? Are you even reading my posts?
I perceive he is ignoring the parts that suit him to ignore. The fact is that he has not established that an outer darkness with open gates to a kingdom is any separation at all. Those who lived outside the city (gates) of Jerusalem were not separated from those who lived inside... but by a gate that could be opened and closed. In Rev. it says the gate is never shut... therefore there is no separation!

There won't be anymore goats or sinners because sin is destroyed by Christ! How can God be "over all and through all and in all." if the all is not really all? if there is a separation? (see Eph. 4:6)
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:46 PM
 
696 posts, read 768,557 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Heb. 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

So we know that nothing created is hidden from God's sight? How can they then be separated from him?

Jeremiah 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

God FILLS (as in completeness) the heavens and the earth... where else would this hell be? Where are the separated ones? outside heaven and earth? space?

Job 34:22 "There is no darkness or deep shadow Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

You seem to have ignored the ones above!

Again... if you think the holy city is heaven then those outside of the city are where? Hell? They get to continue to sin without their flesh? How is that possible? And in an earthly kingdom the subjects outside the gates are still subjects of the kingdom.

Why don't you enlighten me as to where these are separated to when it is clear there is nowhere you can be away from God... he FILLS and ENCOMPASSES the heavens and earth.

I believe you have yet to establish that there is a HELL... which of the four words translated as hell is the real hell? Furthermore, have you met someone who has come back from hell and can give testimony? I just showed you that there is not separation therefore there is no need for them to be brought together. The gates to the kingdom are open always... this certainly doesn't imply they are shut up so that certain people (sinners) cannot enter. They may enter and take some of the living water that flows freely in the kingdom.

Do you have factual evidence of this? I would say you have no concrete evidence of hell. This is simply supposition on your part.

Um... I hate to break this to you but the 66 books were not attached to Revelation when it was being composed therefore the verse that says not to add to it cannot possibly have known it would be included and so it is only the BOOK of Rev. that it refers to. You are expanding the text to accommodate your own view but it has always bothered me that people don't see that this book of revelation was circulated amongst the 7 churches it is addressed to before it was ever canonized! It cannot mean all 66 books. That is just a fallacy on your part (and not only you.. others try that as well) to try to prove your point. However the point is moot.

Can you grace us with scripture that says they are separated by something other than an open gate that is never shut? Otherwise you have failed to show there is a permanent separation in the first place.
Again show me where the goats come together with the sheep, show me where those in the lake come out. Show me where those in Revelation 22:14,15 who shall not enter the city, actually enter the city.

BTW again I tell you those who add or take away from scripture covers the complete canon. I have told you this before and you ignore it still. Those who declare false scripture add or take away.

But again scripture please. Show me where that which is seperated comes together in Revelation.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,443,974 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Im reading your posts? Now your saying there are no more goats. Show me where those who are goats cease to be goats.
Saul was a goat... he ceased to exist but Paul was a sheep. The one was transformed into the other!

Just one example....
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:48 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,714,206 times
Reputation: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
No I must disagree. You must try again. I have shown your missapplication of the complete scripture and why it exists.
I have not misapplied scripture based on your assertion of a selected english word.

Quote:

Please when quoting scripture include the verses that came before it. More often than not it will fix why you are in error. 1 Timothy 2:1 is very important for the next 6 verses.
The verses you wish for me to quote doesn't change anything. You simply try to exploit the fact that I quoted only one verse implying that I am selectively doing so and therefor ignoring the others. I have not ignored any scripture simply because I used only one in this case.


Quote:

Either way you still have not proved those seperated will be brought back together.
The proof that God will save all mankind takes care of the issue.

Quote:

But you have proven my point. When the obvious can not be argued against engage in Symantics.

You make a claim and pretend that proves something, you engage in meaningless words to obfuscate.



Quote:
May the Lord God Jesus Christ find you in Truth!
He has.



Quote:
Or you can believe a lie.

Or you can believe a lie. See, this is meaningless, you and others engage in dogma, I can say the same thing to you and if it is a meaningful statement, then because I say it, then you must believe a lie, thus proving it is meaningless to even say it.
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