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Old 06-10-2010, 03:48 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I perceive he is ignoring the parts that suit him to ignore. The fact is that he has not established that an outer darkness with open gates to a kingdom is any separation at all. Those who lived outside the city (gates) of Jerusalem were not separated from those who lived inside... but by a gate that could be opened and closed. In Rev. it says the gate is never shut... therefore there is no separation!

There won't be anymore goats or sinners because sin is destroyed by Christ! How can God be "over all and through all and in all." if the all is not really all? if there is a separation? (see Eph. 4:6)
I have answered all parts, but mine are not answerd. Instead of using your perception reread the whole discussion.

Now answer mine show me where those who are seperated the goats come back together with the sheep. But as I have said better yet, show me where the goats become sheep in Revelation.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:50 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,411 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Saul was a goat... he ceased to exist but Paul was a sheep. The one was transformed into the other!

Just one example....

Kat this is such a reach I will not even address it. I could give you numerous scriptures where Paul still struggles with the nature of Saul.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:53 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,411 times
Reputation: 66
I have finished this discussion. You have not provided what I ask, but I encourage you to send it to me when you find it.

If you honestly wanted to know Christ you would simply admit it doesnt exist.

But please I implore you, show me where those seperated in Revelation are brought back together. You can email me it anytime.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:53 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,555,893 times
Reputation: 4461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
God desires all to be saved, but again you must now show where this will be so.
Of all the arguments against UR, I have to laugh at this one. UR's learn in preschool that none can overturn His will. (j/k, but seriously )

My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isa. 46:9-10).

The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand. (Isa 14:24)

Even from eternity I am He; and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it? (Isa 43:13)

For My own sake, I will act. (Isa 48:11)

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Isa 55:11)

The Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring up before all the nations. (Isa 66:11)

I'm running out of time, but you get the point.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,381,502 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I have answered all parts, but mine are not answerd. Instead of using your perception reread the whole discussion.

Now answer mine show me where those who are seperated the goats come back together with the sheep. But as I have said better yet, show me where the goats become sheep in Revelation.
You have ABSOLUTELY NOT answered my questions! AND, Revelation is NOT the End of All Things!

Please go back and re-read my posts and answer my questions. There will be NO goats in eternity!
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Again show me where the goats come together with the sheep, show me where those in the lake come out. Show me where those in Revelation 22:14,15 who shall not enter the city, actually enter the city.

BTW again I tell you those who add or take away from scripture covers the complete canon. I have told you this before and you ignore it still. Those who declare false scripture add or take away.

But again scripture please. Show me where that which is seperated comes together in Revelation.
And here lies the problem. Just as you don't have to take my word for it... I certainly don't have to take your word for it. The scripture was canonized formally in the 4th century but it was agreed that certain books were worthy as early as the 2nd century... There is NO WAY that John (the writer) was including all scripture when he clearly says THIS BOOK!

Rev. 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

It is clearly talking about this one book of prophecy...

You can deny that and make it seem like it applies to the whole bible but that is not what the verse states! How many other things have you just accepted because that is what others say?

I asked you to first prove that anyone is separated... an open gate is not a separation!

As to the lake of fire... There is no reason that anyone is ever sent there. In order to be thrown into the lake of fire you must be an entity because death (not alive), Hades (not alive), the beast and prophet (I believe they are figurative not literal for various reasons) and those NOT found in the Book of LIFE are there... however the dead that is in them are brought in front of God to be judged... so who is IN the lake of fire to come out?

If you establish that there IS a separation more permanent than an open gate that never shuts then I will concede the argument. But... believe me.... that is the first thing I tried to prove (and failed miserably) in order to discount the UR ideals. I couldn't but if you think you can then be my guest. Until then I cannot argue something that has not be proven to exist in the first place!
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,381,502 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
And here lies the problem. Just as you don't have to take my word for it... I certainly don't have to take your word for it. The scripture was canonized formally in the 4th century but it was agreed that certain books were worthy as early as the 2nd century... There is NO WAY that John (the writer) was including all scripture when he clearly says THIS BOOK!

Rev. 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

It is clearly talking about this one book of prophecy...

You can deny that and make it seem like it applies to the whole bible but that is not what the verse states! How many other things have you just accepted because that is what others say?

I asked you to first prove that anyone is separated... an open gate is not a separation!

As to the lake of fire... There is no reason that anyone is ever sent there. In order to be thrown into the lake of fire you must be an entity because death (not alive), Hades (not alive), the beast and prophet (I believe they are figurative not literal for various reasons) and those NOT found in the Book of LIFE are there... however the dead that is in them are brought in front of God to be judged... so who is IN the lake of fire to come out?

If you establish that there IS a separation more permanent than an open gate that never shuts then I will concede the argument. But... believe me.... that is the first thing I tried to prove (and failed miserably) in order to discount the UR ideals. I couldn't but if you think you can then be my guest. Until then I cannot argue something that has not be proven to exist in the first place!
And the "Lake of Fire" is OBVIOUSLY a spiritual one. If the adversary is SPIRIT and God is THE everlasting SPIRITUAL fire, well................

Last edited by herefornow; 06-10-2010 at 04:12 PM..
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I have finished this discussion. You have not provided what I ask, but I encourage you to send it to me when you find it.

If you honestly wanted to know Christ you would simply admit it doesnt exist.

But please I implore you, show me where those seperated in Revelation are brought back together. You can email me it anytime.
At least read my most recent post and admit that you are wrong about "adding to the book" applying to all 66 books. Give me that at least.

Again... we cannot show you were people not separated are brought back together... it is impossible... show US where people are separated... by more than an open gate...

Also... why do you think it is called outer darkness when there is no night?
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:09 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,849 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Kat this is such a reach I will not even address it. I could give you numerous scriptures where Paul still struggles with the nature of Saul.

You bring up a good point. It is a mistake I have been making, rather than Saul having been destroyed, the account of Saul and Pauls struggle defines the process.

With that said, such an error of explanation does not change the premise.

If Saul of Taursus is a Goat, then we can understand what a goat is.

We can understand that All mankind is saved, and what is in the process of being destroyed is our evil nature.

Hence "SAUL" of Tarsus can never enter the kingdom. But Paul will.
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,994,791 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Scripture please. Show me where they enter. Not one Universalist has done this yet. They simply declare it to be fact. Show it please.
That is simple, just read Rev.22:14-17

Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is after ALL judgment has past and we find those without the gate are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie ( in other words goats).

We also read that those without the gate ( those same goats) if they keep His commandment may enter in through the gates and drink of the water of life freely.

So there you go a Universalist just showed you that that the goats enter into the city via the gates, so know you can never say again no Universalsit has answered your question.

Of course you are free to disagree with what I just said, but that disagreement does not mean a universalist had never aswered your question.
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