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Old 06-10-2010, 11:24 PM
 
309 posts, read 297,448 times
Reputation: 60

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My comments in BLUE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I have read your post as much as possible and my reply is simple....

I have no idea what you mean saying you read my post “as much as possible”. Which post, this one or the one I gave you from another thread? Either way, did you not read all my post(s)?? Did it not make sense to you. After all that I have pointed out to you, all you can bring up is this “camp” stuff. Not ONE comment on the SCRIPTURES that I have given (and you KEEP asking for scripture). Were the scriptures I gave you lies or do you think I twisted them somehow, or what?? If so, which one? Give me your reasoning in all the scriptures I gave you. You boast of the “reasoning” of UR and say it is not scriptural, then I give you scriptures (MANY of them), and NOT one comment. Give me your reasoning then of why you think EACH scriptures I gave you does NOT mean what I think it means. You say “….read….as much as possible”. What kind of respect is that? I have read every one of your posts on this thread FULLY and have commented on EVERY scripture you have quoted for your position (I think), and you cannot grant me the same kindness. But all you have gleaned from my response to you (and from the other thread I gave you) was this “camp” concept. Well let me tell you where you folly on this “camp” concept as well.

First of all the concept in this following scripture….

1 John 2:17 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

…is from one who is “converted”. What I meant by “camp” was Babylon. I am sorry but Babylon is not converted. I am not trying to upset you by saying you are in Babylon and have yet to “come out of her”, but the scripture speak this to me, especially when NOT ONE comment was made on any of the scriptures I revealed to you. You present scripture to renounce us, I comment with scripture, then you comment to the PLETHORA of scriptures I gave you with 4 scriptures and words of YOUR wisdom. While in the ‘camp’ I used to think that UR was a satanic theology, I used to ask the same questions and perform the same pleadings that you NOW plead. Most in UR will tell you this. At that time, it truly made NO sense to me, and I had a total hatred of UR. But “while” God was dragging me to Him, I finally new what these scriptures were talking about.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


You still don’t think that you can be ‘blinded’. You still don NOT think that God can give you eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear. It is impossible to you to think such a thing. The things we speak are ‘foolishness’ to you.


Do you think that because you were in my "camp" as it were that made you of us? Does 15 years hold any weight when faced with the eternality of a seperation from God? Or do you think it holds weight as a witness to others that you left my "camp"?

Yes, when I was in Babylon I was “of you” (or of one of the MANY denominations that are in Babylon). As with 15 years holding weight, it was part of the plan of God for me to be in Babylon for those 15 years, as it is God’s plan for you to be in it rite now. But all is of God, for I take no credit for my progress. I was blinded then, and I’m not going to go so far as to say that He is not blinding things from me now. But YOU claim that you cannot be blinded at all. This is what Christ was talking about when He said...

Mar 2:17 ....unto them (the scibes and Pharisees), They (Scibes and Pharisees) that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous (Scibes and Pharisees) , but sinners to repentance.

What you are claiming is that you are "whole" and "righteous", therefore in your eyes you are "not sick" and claim you have already "repented" with your own "free will", for you claim "YOU SEE".

As with, as you say “eternally separated from God”, do you want to debate the Greek word “aion” that is translated “eternity” in the bible now? Because it is not what you think it is. Lets look at these verses that you use of ‘me’ leaving the camp.

John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying who can understand it?"

Read a little furthur....

John 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

These are talking about the “many called” that you so thoroughly discuss. Did He not Himself “choose” 12 from out of all that were called? Notice again that Christ chose them, it had NOTHING to do with them choosing Him (John 15:16, this is one of the things you are blinded to). You ask me to “Read a little further…”, but I ask you to “read between” at verse 65. This is why the MANY left, because “no man can come unto” Him, unless it is “given unto” them to come to Him by the Father. This is cut and dry Aschultz…… You believe that you Chose Christ, I believe that the Father dragged me to Him. But alas, at His death these 12 denied Him as well. Why, because they were NOT converted yet (conversion was at Pentacost).


Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and WHEN thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren (who are not converted yet either).


You are not the first nor are you the last to depart from the "camp". But lets change that word "camp" as it is very inappropriate for this conversation. You are not the first nor are you the last to depart from Christ Jesus and walk with Him no more.

In the light of what I am saying the ‘camp’ is, it is you who “walk with Him no more”. For you do not believe the scriptures that are presented to you in my defense, nor will you explain why you don’t believe them. The ‘camp’ thinks carnally. You cannot walk with those scriptures, because as of yet…

…..the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Do not marvel at this false enlightenment that Universalism claims. Do you find it easy as a Universalist to proclaim Jesus? A certain false teacher, a lover of money, proclaimed Him. This false teacher cared nothing for God but lusted after money. When He inquired of God if he should go he was denied the first time. Yet testing God he inquired again and God allowed Him to go, but came to kill him. This false teacher was so unwise he could not even see Jesus right in front of him. But His own animal, a donkey to be specific did, and saved the false teachers life. And then even that false teacher proclaimed the Glory of the Lord in Christ Jesus....

Numbers 17:17 "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.

Balaam was a false prophet and he gave glory as does the Universalist. It is no great thing for a false system to proclaim the Christ, even the demons do it knowing the coming hour. And as they are struck down so was the false teacher Balaam. A lover of money and of the world. One who proclaimed the Christ, but choose folly over the Truth of His word.


And once again you error in your thinking when you state...


“This false teacher was so unwise he could not even see Jesus right in front of him.” (emphasis mine)


He was not ‘unwise’ as you claim but BLINDED to seeing Him. Read the story again and see who takes the credit for Balaam ‘seeing’ Him.

Num 22:31 THEN the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

I am sorry Aschultz, but your theology still does not stand in light of this scripture. If one does not believe, it is because he/she is not brought by God to believe. If one does not see/hear, it is because God has not given them the ability to do so. ALL IS OF GOD. He is the Potter WE ARE THE CLAY. You are questioning the Potter with your defense of your theology. It seems as though you don’t like being a ‘Pot’ that God can make blind, deaf, wicked, unrighteous as He sees fit. Trust in Him in ALL THINGS, for He can make the blind see, and the deaf hear.

In short you have departed, but the Lord continues to call you. Return to the true path and you will not regret it. But persist and like many you will be lost all because of your "camp".

To you, the things I present “is a hard saying” unto you. And you will “walk no more with” me, much less Christ. You despise what I say and Christ says you will despise me. You will derail me, and Christ says you will. So no, it is not a great ‘marvel’ to me that you do not believe me. I can honestly say that “I Love You” for you will be my fellow brother in Christ, for He will open everyone’s eyes sooner or later.

I see your struggle with these things. In ‘due time’ He will show them unto you, but as long as you sit on His throne and take credit for His ‘doings’, He will either ‘reveal’ Himself to you in this life, then you will ‘die daily’ off the throne, or He will “kill” you off of it later so He can SIT in HIS TEMPLE (which temple ye are).
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:29 AM
 
309 posts, read 297,448 times
Reputation: 60
Aschultz......I see two things here. 1)AFTER 'supposedly' reading my posts, you have STILL been claiming this "free choice" that man has. Since you have not commented on that thread, I will post it all here so you can have the opportunity to do so. 2)And it is obvious that you want OUR proof of how "one comes out of the Lake of Fire".

So I tell you what. You show me HOW you can put "free will" back into these scriptures, and I promise you, I will (Lord willing) do my best to show you how the sheep and the goats come back together (although my brethren have been doing well at it).

Again, I must appoligize to my brethren once again for posting this in yet another thread, but Aschultz is claiming that he/she is NOT being answered, and I am claiming that he/she is not answering me. Please forgive me once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I have answered all parts, but mine are not answerd. Instead of using your perception reread the whole discussion.

Now answer mine show me where those who are seperated the goats come back together with the sheep. But as I have said better yet, show me where the goats become sheep in Revelation.
If you can choose Christ solely upon your own freewill, then maybe YOU can explain what all these verses mean to us then, because Sir Mike will not answer them for us.

No one is saying that man does NOT have a will. I am just saying that man’s will is NOT FREE of the manipulation of God’s will.

Read ALL (please read all of it) of this and tell me WHERE you find man’s FREEWILL in it.

Does man have a free will?

Here we have the Israelites NOT YET passing over the Jordan and God tells us what they are going to do there, BEFORE they do it. He even has Moses script a song as a witness to it.

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (in the future?), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Now come on, who can do this but God Himself. Actually, all that they do there MUST happen or else how can it come to be an “ensample” to us. He sets their future, because he can…..

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Man can only follow God because He ‘causes’ them to do so…

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause (Heb: make) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And if they do not see or hear his calling, it is because God “causes” them not to…

Rom. 11:7,8 God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear".

It is God who moves one to do this or that….

2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here is a good example of someone who “thinks” he has something called a “free will”….

Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (therefore, it MUST come to pass). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.

God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.

Jas 4:13-15 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? ………..
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

He knew you “intimately” before you were born and BEFORE your supposed ’free will’ even existed. He knows exactly what you are going to do during your life……

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth [our wills, free or otherwise], nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (According to you EVERYBODY can)
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes and controls the honorable AND the dishonorable vessels. Even those who go against His own people….

Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psa 105:25 He turned their heart (Egypt) to hate his people, to deal subtlely with his servants

Before Moses even went to lead God’s people out of Egypt, God stated this to Moses…

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (Also See ...Exo 7:3, 9:12, 14:4, 14:17, 7:13-14, 7:22, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8).

Not only that who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?

Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

He didn’t just single Pharaoh out to do this, He does it to whomever He wishes

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their [the Canaanites'] hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

God predestines ALL to His own will….

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.

Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?


“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

And does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No, God does that too.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

He controls everything we do.....

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Here is Pilate's supposed free will speaking……

John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?

But where did this power really come from?

Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).

Can we really do good, of our own selves?

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.

The bible continues to show this truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, Hence “free will”):


This is the King of Assyria talking….
Isa 10:13-14
......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of what I have done or because I chose Christ that am saved.)

What else can Truth continue to say though, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want: (This is God talking!!)

Isa 10:10-12
As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [by using the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .

Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Sovereign God says:

Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood

This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesn’t even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?

Isaiah 10:5-8
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?

Even man's supposed "free will" to do evil is in control of God...

Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it [the evil they had done] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”

What happens to a prophet who is deceived?

Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Well thats understanding, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and …..

Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will?

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined BEFORE to be done.

Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye BE LED of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Man cannot “free will” his way into being a “vessel of honor”, God leads him there. If one be given a “good spirit” then is FROM THE LORD, but if one be given an “evil spirit” it too is FROM THE LORD.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit FROM THE LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:16, 19:9)

Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world. You must acknowledge WHAT YOU are, which is a sinner. The day that you see yourself as a worse sinner then Hitler himself…….

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

….is the day you will become closer to God, for your reward is the same. To hold onto one’s supposed “free will” is to remain blind to the truth of WHO is actually in control of ALL things, and He will give you this delusion for a time. But again, remember, it is a delusion. You must come to know what God HIMSELF compares to YOU. You are an AX and He swings YOU. You are His ROD, He uses YOU. You are His STAFF, His CLAY, His POT. None of these things in God’s eyes has a ’freewill’ to guild ITSELF. Do NOT question the POTTER. Man did NOT till the ground FIRST, if He had not tilled FIRST, you would NOT BE. You WILL do what God purposes for you to do. It is an illusion that you hold onto. “Every good thing comes from above”, so why take credit for the GOOD you do, when the GLORY should go to HIM. Man does have a WILL sir, and it is a WILL TO SIN, and none other. The only GOOD will is God’s and whatever good is done by Man has came from God so that man cannot correctly boast (of his own righteous will). If believing is GOOD, than He gave it to you. Every man is a TABERNACLE, and all have a MERCY SEAT. If it is empty (deny thyself, die daily) HE WILL SIT!! If ONE sits there on HIS throne, in His purposed time He will destroy him, but nevertheless HE WILL SIT IN HIS TABERNACLE!! Know this sir, you cannot thwart God’s will.


..............One must stop thinking that all the “If thou does this then….or…if thou does that then….”, utterances of God to mean that He is giving Man a choice, and start thinking that GOD is wanting MAN to know WHAT he (man) is, which is a SINNER. God gave the Israelites these “If thou….” warnings and told Moses WHAT they would follow BEFORE they followed it, and some weren’t even born yet. Pharaoh was given the same “If thou….”, warnings and GOD HIMSELF hardened the Pharaoh to go against them. If one is to keep thinking of these things with such a “carnal” mind, one must then come to the conclusion that the ALL MIGHTY GOD did not actually KNOW where Adam was when he ask the question “…..Where art thou?”

Think about it, it would NOT be so easy for God to do so if they were not ALL sinners (Do not the scripts say that “All have sinned”). This is why ALL have been seen by God as NOT believing, so that He can have mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The thing that most, who think like you, do not see is that YOU obtained mercy for their (Israel’s) very UNBELIEF. And you “in times past have NOT believed”. So what better way to bring them ALL into unbelief so he can have MERCY on ALL of them (and for one to bring up such claims as in, but it only states “they MAY obtain mercy” and God “MIGHT have mercy”, fails to see that these words MAY and MIGHT were not even penned in the original.). They ALL will have mercy. The salvation of an UNBELIEVING Israel is a mystery that you do not understand as of yet, for the “milk” you drink will not reveal it.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (but alas, YOU think you have found it)

You must understand that one cannot BELIEVE in God unless He brings them to belief, so if one be NOT believing, it is God who blinds them so. Satan and God are NOT in some constant struggle as some may think, who do you think God sends to do this Evil work? For Satan nor man can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Was it not God who GAVE Satan power over all that Job had??

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD

It begs to question here of just "WHO" the hand of God is. And was it not God who “moved” David to number Israel??

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [the Lord] moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (any study of Hebrew and LXX here will show that this is talking of God doing the moving)

And who did He send to do it??

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Was not God responsible for the “evil spirit” that was between Abimelech and Shechem??

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

If one is blinded because they BELIEVE in a lie, then who is responsible for that LIE being told by a “false prophet”??

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a [lying] spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (also II Chron. 18:21-22)

Man’s own ‘unawares’ are guided by God alone. Sampson’s own parents new that it was “unlawful” to take a wife of the Philistines (Ex. 34:12 & 16). But WHO moved Sampson to do such a thing??

Jdg 14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (the “it” is what Samson was doing).

And what better way to accomplish this then to just allow man to be WHAT he is (sinner), to do what he does best, which is follow the flesh.

Jdg 14:3....Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

Man is nothing more than a “sinner”, he does NO good apart from God moving him to do so. He simply does what he is created to do which is SIN. One cannot BELIEVE unless guided to believe.

On behalf of my UR brethren, I must say sorry for repeating these words from another thread, but I want to know what THEY think ALL these verses mean, if it does NOT mean that God is Soveriegn.

If one cannot see that God HIMSELF guides mankind, he must be totally BLINDED by their beliefs. If that is NOT what these verses mean, then please tell us what they mean. If we are SO INCORRECT in our thinking then tell us what they really mean then. To ignore them would only prove our point.

Mike refused to address any of these scriptures, only to give me links to read on the "freewill" of man. In respect to him, I read them. All I read was that Man was given a "choice" since creation and has chosen INCORRECTLY EVERYTIME, except when he was touched by God. This is all through the scripture. All we hear from most of Christianity is "DO....Oh man...DO". All Universalists that I have ever known came to the point of just "KNOWING THAT THEY CANNOT DO IT!!", therefore they dont want to guide themselves with "DO....Oh Man....DO" anymore, but rather let Christ BE THERE MIND instead of their own wills running theirselves. It is so much easier to DIE to one's self (and to WHATEVER will they have, free or otherwise).

If one must hold on to this "idol of the heart" called "freewill", then they MUST contend with these verses I have exposed to them. They will haunt you if you dont. Heck I will haunt you with them. So tell me what they mean if we the "UR's" are so wrong.
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Aschultz......I see two things here. 1)AFTER 'supposedly' reading my posts, you have STILL been claiming this "free choice" that man has. Since you have not commented on that thread, I will post it all here so you can have the opportunity to do so. 2)And it is obvious that you want OUR proof of how "one comes out of the Lake of Fire".

So I tell you what. You show me HOW you can put "free will" back into these scriptures, and I promise you, I will (Lord willing) do my best to show you how the sheep and the goats come back together (although my brethren have been doing well at it).

Again, I must appoligize to my brethren once again for posting this in yet another thread, but Aschultz is claiming that he/she is NOT being answered, and I am claiming that he/she is not answering me. Please forgive me once again.



If you can choose Christ solely upon your own freewill, then maybe YOU can explain what all these verses mean to us then, because Sir Mike will not answer them for us.

No one is saying that man does NOT have a will. I am just saying that man’s will is NOT FREE of the manipulation of God’s will.

Read ALL (please read all of it) of this and tell me WHERE you find man’s FREEWILL in it.

Does man have a free will?

Here we have the Israelites NOT YET passing over the Jordan and God tells us what they are going to do there, BEFORE they do it. He even has Moses script a song as a witness to it.

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (in the future?), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Now come on, who can do this but God Himself. Actually, all that they do there MUST happen or else how can it come to be an “ensample” to us. He sets their future, because he can…..

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Man can only follow God because He ‘causes’ them to do so…

Eze 36:27 And I will put my
spirit within you, and cause
(Heb: make) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And if they do not see or hear his calling, it is because God “causes” them not to…

Rom. 11:7,8 God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear".

It is God who moves one to do this or that….

2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as
they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Here is a good example of someone who “thinks” he has something called a “free will”….

Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (therefore, it MUST come to pass). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.

God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.

Jas 4:13-15 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? ………..
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

He knew you “intimately” before you were born and BEFORE your supposed ’free will’ even existed. He knows exactly what you are going to do during your life……

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth
[
our wills, free or otherwise], nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (According to you EVERYBODY can)
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes and controls the honorable AND the dishonorable vessels. Even those who go against His own people….

Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and
made them stronger than their enemies.

Psa 105:25 He turned their heart (Egypt) to hate his people, to deal subtlely with his servants

Before Moses even went to lead God’s people out of Egypt, God stated this to Moses…

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (Also See ...Exo 7:3, 9:12, 14:4, 14:17, 7:13-14, 7:22, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8).

Not only that who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?

Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

He didn’t just single Pharaoh out to do this, He does it to whomever He wishes

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their [the Canaanites'] hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

God predestines ALL to His own will….

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.

Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?


“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

And does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No,
God does that too.


Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

He controls everything we do.....

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it
whithersoever he will
.


Here is Pilate's supposed free will speaking……

John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?

But where did this power really come from?

Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).

Can we really do good, of our own selves?

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.

The bible continues to show this truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, Hence “free will”):


This is the King of Assyria talking….
Isa 10:13-14
......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and
I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.


We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of
what I have done or because I chose Christ that am saved.)


What else can Truth continue to say though, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want: (This is God talking!!)

Isa 10:10-12
As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [by using the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .

Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Sovereign God says:

Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria]
should lift up itself, as if it were no wood


This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesn’t even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?

Isaiah 10:5-8
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?

Even man's supposed "free will" to do evil is in control of God...

Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it [the evil they had done] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”

What happens to a prophet who is deceived?

Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Well thats understanding, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and …..

Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will?

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined BEFORE to be done.

Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye BE LED of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Man cannot “free will” his way into being a “vessel of honor”, God leads him there. If one be given a “good spirit” then is FROM THE LORD, but if one be given an “evil spirit” it too is FROM THE LORD.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit FROM THE LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:16, 19:9)

Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world. You must acknowledge WHAT YOU are, which is a sinner. The day that you see yourself as a worse sinner then Hitler himself…….

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

….is the day you will become closer to God, for your reward is the same. To hold onto one’s supposed “free will” is to remain blind to the truth of WHO is actually in control of ALL things, and He will give you this delusion for a time. But again, remember, it is a delusion. You must come to know what God HIMSELF compares to YOU. You are an AX and He swings YOU. You are His ROD, He uses YOU. You are His STAFF, His CLAY, His POT. None of these things in God’s eyes has a ’freewill’ to guild ITSELF. Do NOT question the POTTER. Man did NOT till the ground FIRST, if He had not tilled FIRST, you would NOT BE. You WILL do what God purposes for you to do. It is an illusion that you hold onto. “Every good thing comes from above”, so why take credit for the GOOD you do, when the GLORY should go to HIM. Man does have a WILL sir, and it is a WILL TO SIN, and none other. The only GOOD will is God’s and whatever good is done by Man has came from God so that man cannot correctly boast (of his own righteous will). If believing is GOOD, than He gave it to you. Every man is a TABERNACLE, and all have a MERCY SEAT. If it is empty (deny thyself, die daily) HE WILL SIT!! If ONE sits there on HIS throne, in His purposed time He will destroy him, but nevertheless HE WILL SIT IN HIS TABERNACLE!! Know this sir, you cannot thwart God’s will.


..............One must stop thinking that all the “If thou does this then….or…if thou does that then….”, utterances of God to mean that He is giving Man a choice, and start thinking that GOD is wanting MAN to know WHAT he (man) is, which is a SINNER. God gave the Israelites these “If thou….” warnings and told Moses WHAT they would follow BEFORE they followed it, and some weren’t even born yet. Pharaoh was given the same “If thou….”, warnings and GOD HIMSELF hardened the Pharaoh to go against them. If one is to keep thinking of these things with such a “carnal” mind, one must then come to the conclusion that the ALL MIGHTY GOD did not actually KNOW where Adam was when he ask the question “…..Where art thou?”

Think about it, it would NOT be so easy for God to do so if they were not ALL sinners (Do not the scripts say that “All have sinned”). This is why ALL have been seen by God as NOT believing, so that He can have mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The thing that most, who think like you, do not see is that YOU obtained mercy for their (Israel’s) very UNBELIEF. And you “in times past have NOT believed”. So what better way to bring them ALL into unbelief so he can have MERCY on ALL of them (and for one to bring up such claims as in, but it only states “they MAY obtain mercy” and God “MIGHT have mercy”, fails to see that these words MAY and MIGHT were not even penned in the original.). They ALL will have mercy. The salvation of an UNBELIEVING Israel is a mystery that you do not understand as of yet, for the “milk” you drink will not reveal it.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (but alas, YOU think you have found it)

You must understand that one cannot BELIEVE in God unless He brings them to belief, so if one be NOT believing, it is God who blinds them so. Satan and God are NOT in some constant struggle as some may think, who do you think God sends to do this Evil work? For Satan nor man can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Was it not God who GAVE Satan power over all that Job had??

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD

It begs to question here of just "WHO" the hand of God is. And was it not God who “moved” David to number Israel??

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [the Lord] moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (any study of Hebrew and LXX here will show that this is talking of God doing the moving)

And who did He send to do it??

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Was not God responsible for the “evil spirit” that was between Abimelech and Shechem??

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

If one is blinded because they BELIEVE in a lie, then who is responsible for that LIE being told by a “false prophet”??

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a [lying] spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (also II Chron. 18:21-22)

Man’s own ‘unawares’ are guided by God alone. Sampson’s own parents new that it was “unlawful” to take a wife of the Philistines (Ex. 34:12 & 16). But WHO moved Sampson to do such a thing??

Jdg 14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (the “it” is what Samson was doing).

And what better way to accomplish this then to just allow man to be WHAT he is (sinner), to do what he does best, which is follow the flesh.

Jdg 14:3....Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

Man is nothing more than a “sinner”, he does NO good apart from God moving him to do so. He simply does what he is created to do which is SIN. One cannot BELIEVE unless guided to believe.

On behalf of my UR brethren, I must say sorry for repeating these words from another thread, but I want to know what THEY think ALL these verses mean, if it does NOT mean that God is Soveriegn.

If one cannot see that God HIMSELF guides mankind, he must be totally BLINDED by their beliefs. If that is NOT what these verses mean, then please tell us what they mean. If we are SO INCORRECT in our thinking then tell us what they really mean then. To ignore them would only prove our point.

Mike refused to address any of these scriptures, only to give me links to read on the "freewill" of man. In respect to him, I read them. All I read was that Man was given a "choice" since creation and has chosen INCORRECTLY EVERYTIME, except when he was touched by God. This is all through the scripture. All we hear from most of Christianity is "DO....Oh man...DO". All Universalists that I have ever known came to the point of just "KNOWING THAT THEY CANNOT DO IT!!", therefore they dont want to guide themselves with "DO....Oh Man....DO" anymore, but rather let Christ BE THERE MIND instead of their own wills running theirselves. It is so much easier to DIE to one's self (and to WHATEVER will they have, free or otherwise).

If one must hold on to this "idol of the heart" called "freewill", then they MUST contend with these verses I have exposed to them. They will haunt you if you dont. Heck I will haunt you with them. So tell me what they mean if we the "UR's" are so wrong.
Wow!! Thanks for that little sermon on free will. I'm still working on some of this myself. That helped a bit.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,157,551 times
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Mr. Aschultz,
I'm glad you're here as a seeker, just like the rest of us. None of us deserves any merit at all for what we speak of, since it is the Holy One of Israel (not the "Israel" we now see in the middle east, mind you..) who has given us an understanding.
The mercy of the Lord endureth forever. His mercy is far-reaching, even unto the ends of the earth. His word is in us, in our hearts and in our mouths. He is not far from any of us, for we are His offspring.
The true circumcision is that of the heart. Circumcision is the cutting away of that which is not clean in the sight of God. HE is doing a work today in the hearts of men and women all over the world, many of whom have perhaps never set foot in a "church." He looks upon the heart of man, and He knows what is necessary to save man. He does the cleansing work of the heart, He is the One who opens the eyes of the blind. Indeed, He is the One who blinds!
God is Love. God is never resentful. And nothing is impossible for Him. Some will say, "when men die, God can do no more."
But who is man to say what God can do, in the blink of an eye? It is He who raises the dead. All shall live unto Him. And He does not despise the broken-hearted and afflicted. Therefore it is written, "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Saul didn't know Jesus, yet he called Him "LORD." He said, "who art thou, Lord?" And Jesus responded, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest." Saul was persecuting Jesus in a body of the believers.
Whosoever confesseth that Jesus Christ IS come (not HAS come) in the flesh (your flesh and my flesh) is of God.

Yes, there is a part of man which is unclean, the son of perdition, which shall be taken and destroyed. But God is willing that ALL men return to Him. God is not arrogant, selfish, litigious or hateful of the man He created. God hates iniquity, not man.

Love your enemies; forgive; condemn not. These are God's commands to us, in order that we become LIKE HIM.

Blessings to you!
brian
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:26 PM
 
309 posts, read 297,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Wow!! Thanks for that little sermon on free will. I'm still working on some of this myself. That helped a bit.
Your quite welcome herefornow. Glory be to God.
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Old 06-11-2010, 08:05 PM
 
309 posts, read 297,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Whosoever confesseth that Jesus Christ IS come (not HAS come) in the flesh (your flesh and my flesh) is of God
It took a VERY BLESSED SIGHT given to you by God to see this Brian. You have helped me greatly with your very words. Take this verse to your own heart my brother.

Mat 16:17 ....Blessed art thou, ......for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The way you 'see' the said verse....1Jn 4:2....please 'expound' to me what it means to you and how or if it seperates you from "the ones in the world".
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:50 PM
 
702 posts, read 817,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Brother its Symantics at its best. This is why I do not engage it, but clearly showed the passage to mean we should pray for the leaders and the lost. 1 Timothy 2:2-4 can be twisted any which way one chooses unless it is taken in the whole. The use of 1 Timothy 2:1 establishes why 2 thru 4 are legitimate. We must pray for those who are not of us. In essence

Love your neighbor as yourself.
I agree. They need prayer. They stubbornly hold to just the definition that suits their doctrine while ignoring the rest. It's not an honest approach to the Word, and that's tragic.
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