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Old 06-09-2010, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,270 posts, read 88,392,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Eternal Torment preached at Baccalaureate

Tonight a public speaker flew in from Atlanta to speak at my daughter's baccalaureate. The main topic was heaven or hell. This guy rubbs elbows with all the famous athletes. He starts off by asking the audience if anyone believe hell is eternal. I said "NO!" But he didn't get a good enough response from the audience so he asked the question again "Does anyone here believe hell is eternal?" and this time I yelled "NO!!!!". Lot's of people turned around and looked right at me. He continued as if nothing was said.
He spent 45 minutes mentally abusing the graduates telling them all about how God is going to eternally torment them in hell if they don't believe in Him. He kept snapping his fingers and saying "every second two people in the world die. Before your head hits the pillow over a hundred thousand people will have died in the world. What are you going to do about it? All those people will go to heaven or hell he said.

After the abuse session I had a word with him in front of my daughter. I asked him, Mark, would your earthly father torture you if you didn't do what he told you to do? He snapped back: "What's your point." So I asked again, very gently, Would your dad build a bonfire in the back yard and torture you in those flames if you didn't do what he told you to do. He replied "No. What's your point." So I asked him if his earthly father is more loving than his heavenly father.

Then I started telling him all about 1 Timothy 2:4-6 how that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all. I told him to do a study on the world "ransom" through the whole bible and prove to himself that everyone ransomed had to be freed. He replied, Yea but there is a hell and lots of people are going there. I replied, Mark, what did I just say? I said "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind. He asked, What's the context? I replied "we are to pray for all mankind, for kings and all who are in authority for God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ ransomed all." He asked: Are you a Jehovah's Witness?" I said No. He said: Well there is a hell and there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. I replied that that hell is Gehenna and it is only for the thousand years. And I said the lake of fire is the second death and that no one suffers in the lake of fire because it is death. He replied, "yea but it is for ever and ever and ever and ever." I replied, No it is just for ever and ever. He replied, well that's eternity isn't it? I said no and I rattled off the Greek for it. So he told me to send him some literature and he'd read it. He said "You can't prove to me it's not eternal." I laughed and pointed my finger right at him and said "I sure can prove it's not eternal!"
I told him, Mark, you are tormented by this. He said "No I'm not." I said of course you are. You are tormented. I told him I used to preach hell and damnation. He said you need to get back to it. I said to just search out the word "ransom" and prove to yourself that all ransomed must be freed.
My daughter was amazed I wouldn't back down from this 6'6 or so tall guy.

Anyway, what book do you think I should send him that you think would really help him?

Man, what kind of school did your daughter graduate from???
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:26 PM
 
783 posts, read 1,181,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Then I started telling him all about 1 Timothy 2:4-6 how that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all. I told him to do a study on the world "ransom" through the whole bible and prove to himself that everyone ransomed had to be freed.
Lets look at 1 Timothy 4: 2 – 6. Your focus word in these verses is the word “all” which Universalists incorrectly understand primarily because they overlook context and grammatical usage. The word “all” here is being used collectively, meaning some of all types. Lets look at some examples of this for proper reference.

..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?
"then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan?

"Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody?

The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

What I find interesting in you tactic to support you flawed interpretation of Scripture is how you threw in the spin of the checking the meaning of the word “ransom” which effectively drew the discussion away from the context and usage of the word “all”. This is a good indication that you know that your argument for the word “all” won’t stand up under serious scrutiny.

The reason that you have a flawed understanding of Hell – eternal torment, is because you practice eisegesis rather than the correct method of study, exegesis.

The gentleman gave you great advise when he suggested, “you need to get back to it
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,653,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
Lets look at 1 Timothy 4: 2 – 6. Your focus word in these verses is the word “all” which Universalists incorrectly understand primarily because they overlook context and grammatical usage. The word “all” here is being used collectively, meaning some of all types. Lets look at some examples of this for proper reference.

..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?
"then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan?

"Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody?

The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

What I find interesting in you tactic to support you flawed interpretation of Scripture is how you threw in the spin of the checking the meaning of the word “ransom” which effectively drew the discussion away from the context and usage of the word “all”. This is a good indication that you know that your argument for the word “all” won’t stand up under serious scrutiny.

The reason that you have a flawed understanding of Hell – eternal torment, is because you practice eisegesis rather than the correct method of study, exegesis.

The gentleman gave you great advise when he suggested, “you need to get back to it.”
So what does ransom mean to you? Staunch eternal torment believers will admit that Christ ransomed all... so why are some still sentenced even though they are ransomed?

1 Tim 2:1-7 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

It says ALL MEN not just ALL.... ALL MEN are ransomed.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The same world Christ was sent into is the very world that is saved....
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesmountains View Post
man, what kind of school did your daughter graduate from???
bju?
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,270 posts, read 88,392,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
bju?

??? can you please translate?
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,761,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
Lets look at 1 Timothy 4: 2 – 6. Your focus word in these verses is the word “all” which Universalists incorrectly understand primarily because they overlook context and grammatical usage. The word “all” here is being used collectively, meaning some of all types. Lets look at some examples of this for proper reference.

..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?
"then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan?

"Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody?

The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

What I find interesting in you tactic to support you flawed interpretation of Scripture is how you threw in the spin of the checking the meaning of the word “ransom” which effectively drew the discussion away from the context and usage of the word “all”. This is a good indication that you know that your argument for the word “all” won’t stand up under serious scrutiny.

The reason that you have a flawed understanding of Hell – eternal torment, is because you practice eisegesis rather than the correct method of study, exegesis.

The gentleman gave you great advise when he suggested, “you need to get back to it.”
I have a suggestion of a book to give him. How about the Bible? It's the most important because it's God's Holy Word. No other books compare to it. I'm pretty sure he has one though so don't waste your time. Maybe you should spend more time reading it instead of reading other books.

I can't believe you would have the audacity to go and preach universalism to him. If all are saved, why do you care if he believes in hell?

Last edited by CantWait2Leave; 06-09-2010 at 10:18 PM..
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,653,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
??? can you please translate?
My guess is Bob Jones University. I had a friend who graduated from there and I used their homeschool material for years...

But I don't know, I was just guessing.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,761,800 times
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Regarding the speaker, I'm glad to hear people speaking the truth! People need to be warned!
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:53 PM
 
783 posts, read 1,181,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The same world Christ was sent into is the very world that is saved....
Yes, the word “world” was covered in my first response also. You will notice that it is being used collectively also, just like “all” is in your examples.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: NH
232 posts, read 484,886 times
Reputation: 166
BJU is Bob Jones University, where Bob Jones Sr., Jr, and III have said that Catholics are "not another Christian denomination. It is a satanic counterfeit, an ecclesiastic tyranny over the souls of men....It is the old harlot of the book of the Revelation—'the Mother of Harlots."

Also the school that banned inter-racial dating and admitted/apologized for having policies of institutionalized racism.
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