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Old 06-10-2010, 02:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Here is a quote form your link "The inspired Scriptures never speak of eternity. They describe nothing as eternal."

If this is true, then heaven isn't eternal.

That can very well be true, the bible describes a new heaven and new earth, the old pass away.

We put on immortality which is a life beyond a place.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
God does what he wants!! True. Nobody believes it.

He WILLS all to have the knowledge of him and his love.

He is the savior of ALL men.

(Here are a FEW of the HUNDREDS of verses that talk of the Restitution of All Things in the Universe. Tradition likes to keep tradition. It won't budge. It would have to start loving it's enemies and stop all wars. Won't happen. But, here you go.)

Romans 11:32 and 36. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever.


John 3:35. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand


John 17:2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him


John 13:3. Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;


I Timothy 2: 1-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I Timothy 4: 9-10. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Daniel 4:35. And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Deuteronomy 32: 39. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.


Romans 5:18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment (death) came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth (He came back from death), will draw all men unto me.



Isaiah 45:23: unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


I Corinthians 4:23: no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Philippians 2: 10-11. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Ephesians 1: 9-11. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;


Colossians 1: 16 and 20. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


I John 2:2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Romans 8: 20-21. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God


Revelation 5:13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.



John 4:42. Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.



First John 4:14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.





Ephesians 2:7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.



Ephesians 4:10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things




There will be NO secret place in all the universe for people that are just hanging out in torment. NOT ONE DARK PLACE!!

The angels are tormented in the PRESENCE OF THE LAMB! The lake of fire is meant to TORMENT those in it. The angels are in the SPIRIT REALM! We are NOT talking a LITERAL fire here!


SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

We all have to go through that fire. Every single last one of us..........

Amen! The word of God speaks for itself, actually Himself.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
We PUT ON immortality (we are not BORN with eternal spirits). None of us are entering "eternal" life. That would NOT make any sense. We are not eternal. We are becoming immortal. The ONLY time the word "eternal" can be used in the CORRECT way would be next to God himself who is the ONLY thing in this universe that is eternal.
No, because the same Greek word "aion" is used of heaven, hell and God's duration.

Greek word "aion" used of heaven

Matthew 25:46 "but the righteous into life eternal."

Greek word "aion" used of God's duration

1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

1 Peter 4:11 "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Greek word "aion" used of hell

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord."

Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
That can very well be true, the bible describes a new heaven and new earth, the old pass away.

We put on immortality which is a life beyond a place.
Then God isn't eternal. The same Greek word "aion" is used to describe heaven and God.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:52 PM
 
702 posts, read 811,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
The responce is the same, you built a case on inference and speculation, not the word of God, so your words are not the word of God.
Please show me specifically--not by assertions, but by referring directly to my analysis--how I "built a case on inference and speculation." (I find this claim to be amazing in light of the fact that I actually examined the original language, grammar and context.) In order to come to this conclusion, surely you actually read my post. Therefore, you should be able to point out specific details of what I wrote which led to your conclusion.

I look forward to your response, complete with accurate quotes from post #36. Here is a direct link for your convenience: http://www.city-data.com/forum/14557916-post36.html.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
No, because the same Greek word "aion" is used of heaven, hell and God's duration.

Greek word "aion" used of heaven

Matthew 25:46 "but the righteous into life eternal."

Greek word "aion" used of God's duration

1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

1 Peter 4:11 "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Greek word "aion" used of hell

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord."

Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
Yes, it is the same word, and OBVIOUSLY used incorrectly.

"ETERNAL" can ONLY correctly be used next to God. NOTHING ELSE IS ETERNAL!

ETERNAL: Without beginning or ending! GOD.

Immortality: Having beginning, but no ending. All created things.

Everlasting: Obviously used incorrectly THROUGHOUT the entire Bible. I can show post all these verses if you want.

Ages: Many of those.

No time: After all ages are wrapped up.

Revelation is NOT the last word on the end of the ages. That is a prophetic book and was speaking of much higher spiritual matters that most CANNOT grasp.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:21 PM
 
37,494 posts, read 25,224,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Revelation is NOT the last word on the end of the ages. That is a prophetic book and was speaking of much higher spiritual matters that most CANNOT grasp.
This so true. ALL the scriptures are of SPIRITUAL import and are wrongly interpreted with carnal minds about worldly things . . . but none more egregiously than Revelation. I cannot believe the certainty and recklessness with which interpretations of Revelation are presented. I have decades of study to my credit and I wouldn't DARE assert with such certainty. I have my views about Revelation . . . but I seldom profess them for that very reason.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,684,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Yes, it is the same word, and OBVIOUSLY used incorrectly.

"ETERNAL" can ONLY correctly be used next to God. NOTHING ELSE IS ETERNAL!

ETERNAL: Without beginning or ending! GOD.

Immortality: Having beginning, but no ending. All created things.

Everlasting: Obviously used incorrectly THROUGHOUT the entire Bible. I can show post all these verses if you want.

Ages: Many of those.

No time: After all ages are wrapped up.

Revelation is NOT the last word on the end of the ages. That is a prophetic book and was speaking of much higher spiritual matters that most CANNOT grasp.
What do you mean it's used incorrectly? How can aion mean eternal for God, but not eternal for anything else? It's the same exact word.

Also it says in Romans 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith"... so if everlasting is "used incorrectly THROUGHOUT the entire Bible" then God isn't everlasting?
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:43 PM
 
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Jesus' teaching about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit proves that not all will be saved:

Matthew 12:31-32 (NASB): “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Mark 3:28-29 (NASB): “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Luke 12:10 (NASB): "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him."

In the passage in Mark, Jesus sharply contrasts pardonable sins with the unpardonable sin—blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The use of the Greek word “de,” meaning “but,” shows this contrast. Christ goes on to say that the one committing this sin is guilty of an “eternal sin.” The adjective aiwnios is used to modify the noun “sin.” The contrast would make no sense if aiwnios described the sin as merely “temporary,” for that would place it in the same category as forgivable sins mentioned just before. In that case, we would end up with this nonsensical translation:

“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit has forgiveness, but is guilty of a temporary sin.”

The Lord’s point here, which cannot be overlooked, is that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable. As such, it is an eternal sin.

A more literal translation would be, “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness to the age (aiwna) but is guilty of an eternal (aiwniou) sin.”

The passage from Luke brings out the same contrast: Forgivable sins are diametrically opposed to the sin that will not be forgiven: "...but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him."

Again, if this sin were to be forgiven at some point in the future, then the contrast in the passage would be completely overturned, and we would end up with this nonsensical translation:"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will be forgiven him."

If they were all in the same category, how could there be a contrast?

This text clearly affirms that not all will be saved. It is an unpleasant truth, but its unpleasantness does not make it any less true.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
What do you mean it's used incorrectly? How can aion mean eternal for God, but not eternal for anything else? It's the same exact word.

Also it says in Romans 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith"... so if everlasting is "used incorrectly THROUGHOUT the entire Bible" then God isn't everlasting?
WHAT is the ONLY thing in this Universe that is ETERNAL?


First of all, we have FAITH that there is a God. We have FAITH that He is eternal and had NO beginning, and He will have no ending.

We know WE had a beginning and we have FAITH that we will have immortality, NOT eternal life.

"Everlasting" and "forever" is used throughout the Bible to mean the OPPOSITE of what we think it means. You CANNOT use forever and ever to mean eternal. That makes absolutely no sense.

Forever and ever: If forever means forever than you don't need the extra ever. It is talking about a time that will end.

The rest of the post is from the Tentmaker site.Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>


Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).


The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).


Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).


An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):


Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).


The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).


Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.


The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).


The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).




The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).


God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);



Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).


"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).


Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).


So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until-- and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28).


The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
God is now calling out "a people for His name"--an "elect" or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature.



Many are called and few are chosen--until--the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore "David's tabernacle" so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first-born, the beginning--until--in ALL (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1 18).




All manner of sin will be forgiven in this AGE as well as in the AGE (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God's Spirit-until--such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).


God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost" (1 Thess. 2:16). So there is a gulf between "the rich man in purple" (Royal Covenant "Son", Israel) and the saved gentiles (Lazarus) which no man can cross--until--Christ Himself crosses it to bring His promised restoration. For again, Scripture promises that ALL Israel will be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32, Romans 11:26-29).


Christ's fallen apostle, Judas, will be restored just as surely as fallen Israel (of which he is a member) will be restored. For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable, and He has purposed to unite all in Christ. For Scripture assures us that He who calls us is 'faithful". He will surely perform it. So Judas is lost-until--the Lord restores Him (John 15:16, 1 Thess. 5:24).


So, Christ will say to unrighteous NATIONS, "Depart from Me into 'everlasting' fire." And these nations will go away into "everlasting" (original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning, that is--until--by God's severe mercy shown in judgment, ALL nations He has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of ALL the nations will be BLESSED (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46). For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with Abraham means that ALL will be justified and set right with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).


Therefore, ALL scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or judgment MUST be understood in light of God's (Love's) clearly expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They ARE "everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and on-going--until--God's judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to unite ALL creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).


Truly God's judgments are in the earth-until-mercy shall triumph over those judgments. (James 2:13)
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