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Old 06-10-2010, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
John 3:16 " For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have ETERNAL life".
Who ALONE is eternal?
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Phazelwood, I find it very interesting that you seem so unwilling to tackle my analyses of those texts directly. Since you are obviously unwilling even to consider those, and insist on making assertion after assertion, any further interaction with you would be pointless. When you are willing to have a dialogue about this by responding directly to what I say, I will be happy to discuss this.

I invite anyone else to respond to my two posts directly. They prove that not all will be forgiven and that there will be an everlasting punishment.
Everlasting punishment, yes? How is everlasting used in the Bible. Old Testament AND New?
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,688,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I am not trying to twist what eternal means, CantWait2Leave.

I was trying to make my point. WE are not eternal, and we CANNOT have eternal life. That word should never be used in relation to anything other than God. (Like katjonjj said, we can HAVE GOD who is eternal life...)

You did read the Corinthians verse I posted that says we have to PUT ON immortality, right?
Then you don't believe the Bible. It's as simple as that. If we don't have eternal (aion) life than God is not eternal (aion). I already showed you this, but you refuse to listen.

Yes, I do see that we receive immortality and eternal life from Him (Romans 2:7). I'll have to look up why 1 Tim 6:16 says God alone possesses immortality.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Then you don't believe the Bible. It's as simple as that. If we don't have eternal (aion) life than God is not eternal (aion). I already showed you this, but you refuse to listen.

Yes, I do see that we receive immortality and eternal life from Him (Romans 2:7). I'll have to look up why 1 Tim 6:16 says God alone possesses immortality.
Did you read my post with all the "everlasting" verses? Do you see how these words are used in the Bible?

I believe we put on immortality and live without end. That is a good thing. God alone has no beginning and no end.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:14 PM
 
702 posts, read 812,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I am not trying to twist what eternal means, CantWait2Leave.

I was trying to make my point. WE are not eternal, and we CANNOT have eternal life.


What, then, does "eternal" mean in this verse: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Mt. 25:46)?

Or this one: "but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:30)

Quote:
That word should never be used in relation to anything other than God.
Yes, it should not be used in the sense of "without beginning and without end" except when referring to God. But the Scriptures clearly use the word also to mean "without end"--unless you want to say that in the verses above "eternal life" really means "temporary life."

To demonstrate this, consider this passage from John 4 (Greek interspersed with English):

13Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;

13απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτη πας ο πινων εκ του υδατος τουτου διψησει παλιν

14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4, NASB)

14ος δ αν πιη εκ του υδατος ου εγω δωσω αυτω ου μη διψησει εις τον αιωνα αλλα το υδωρ ο δωσω αυτω γενησεται εν αυτω πηγη υδατος αλλομενου εις ζωην αιωνιον

Jesus contrasts regular, physical water with living water. Those who drink regular water will just end up thirsting again. That water quenches the thirst only temporarily, not eternally. That is plain to see. He then goes on to say, however--introducing the contrast with the word "but" (de)--that those who drink his living water "will not (by no means, as indicated by the Greek phrase ου μη) thirst to the age."

Now, perhaps you could say that the Greek phrase εις τον αιωνα has only a temporal meaning. If that were true, one could then conclude that the following phrase ζωην αιωνιον could not mean "eternal life." That, however, would present a serious problem, as it would leave us with the following silly, nonsensical translation:

"Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to life for a time." "

Since that cannot be, αιωνιον in this context must mean "eternal."
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
In addition... Jesus defines ETERNAL LIFE as knowing GOD (who is eternal) and his son.

It is not defined as living eternally, but knowing God.

Therefore by Christ's own definition eternal life is not about duration of life at all, but quality of life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
John 3:16 " For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have ETERNAL life".
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I am not trying to twist what eternal means, CantWait2Leave. "Eternal" means "eternal." That's my point! NO beginning, and NO ending.

WE are not eternal, and we CANNOT have eternal life. That word should never be used in relation to anything other than God. (Like katjonjj said, we can HAVE GOD who is eternal life...)

You did read the Corinthians verse I posted that says we have to PUT ON immortality, right?
Like we have tried to point out... eternal life as defined by JESUS is life knowing God and his son... this is not a duration of life but a quality of life.

If you are confused it is probably because you are redefining eternal life when it is clearly defined by Jesus in John 17.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
[/color][/b]What, then, does "eternal" mean in this verse: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Mt. 25:46)?

Or this one: "but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:30)
[b][color=DarkRed]


Yes, it should not be used in the sense of "without beginning and without end" except when referring to God. But the Scriptures clearly use the word also to mean "without end"--unless you want to say that in the verses above "eternal life" really means "temporary life."

To demonstrate this, consider this passage from John 4 (Greek interspersed with English):

13Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;

13απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτη πας ο πινων εκ του υδατος τουτου διψησει παλιν

14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4, NASB)

14ος δ αν πιη εκ του υδατος ου εγω δωσω αυτω ου μη διψησει εις τον αιωνα αλλα το υδωρ ο δωσω αυτω γενησεται εν αυτω πηγη υδατος αλλομενου εις ζωην αιωνιον

Jesus contrasts regular, physical water with living water. Those who drink regular water will just end up thirsting again. That water quenches the thirst only temporarily, not eternally. That is plain to see. He then goes on to say, however--introducing the contrast with the word "but" (de)--that those who drink his living water "will not (by no means, as indicated by the Greek phrase ου μη) thirst to the age."

Now, perhaps you could say that the Greek phrase εις τον αιωνα has only a temporal meaning. If that were true, one could then conclude that the following phrase ζωην αιωνιον could not mean "eternal life." That, however, would present a serious problem, as it would leave us with the following silly, nonsensical translation:

"Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to life for a time." "

Since that cannot be, αιωνιον in this context must mean "eternal."
Everything is temporary! Punishment, this life, judgment, corruption, deception, prophecy, tongues, etc.

Everything except God! We have to put on immortality and we have to be in God's eternal presence, which gives us LIFE! ETERNAL LIFE!
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,688,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Did you read my post with all the "everlasting" verses? Do you see how these words are used in the Bible?

I believe we put on immortality and live without end. That is a good thing. God alone has no beginning and no end.
Yes, I did and they were all in the OT (Hebrew). You wrote that everlasting is used incorrectly throughout the entire Bible. This isn't true which is why I wrote:

"If everlasting in Matthew 25:41 means "age-lasting" then God being everlasting in Romans 16:26 means "age-lasting" because it's from the same Greek word aionios #166. What you are trying to do doesn't add up."

I have to go do some errands. I'll be back later.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:39 PM
 
702 posts, read 812,502 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Everything is temporary! Punishment, this life, judgment, corruption, deception, prophecy, tongues, etc.

Everything except God! We have to put on immortality and we have to be in God's eternal presence, which gives us LIFE! ETERNAL LIFE!
To conclude this, you have to ignore the plain truth of John 4. Clearly there Jesus teaches that there is life without end--not a temporary life, but an everlasting one.

Edit: Although I do see one aspect of your point. Only God is eternal in the sense of being without beginning and without end. Our life is not eternal in that sense. It is eternal, though, in the sense that the spiritual life in believers is without end.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,422 posts, read 29,562,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
To conclude this, you have to ignore the plain truth of John 4. Clearly there Jesus teaches that there is life without end--not a temporary life, but an everlasting one.
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