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Old 06-11-2010, 04:13 PM
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,382 posts, read 7,851,692 times
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
You beat me to it and we said the same thing.
That is because TRUTH is objective.

Old 06-11-2010, 04:18 PM
1,897 posts, read 1,675,490 times
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
The passage is about Christian workers, not everyone.

The passage says nothing about the purification of individuals. Works are tested in this passage. There is nothing about temporary punishment in this passage.
Show me where it says this is about Christian workers. It says Jesus is the foundation, not that you chose Him to be the foundation. Also, explain why the fire in this verse is symbolic, and the lake of fire in Revelation is not.
Old 06-11-2010, 04:38 PM
365 posts, read 413,642 times
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Everyone will be saved EXCEPT for those who hated the love of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Jesus IS the Truth, John 14:6, so if someone hates the love of the truth, then by default, they hate Jesus.

So all those who love the truth, by default, love Jesus and will be saved. This applies to all those people who lived and died without even hearing about Jesus, e.g living in the amazons, muslims who were forbidden to hear about Jesus and forbidden to talk about Jesus and to read a bible.

So who will be saved?


1. All those who placed faith in Jesus.

2. All those who loved the truth..and this includes people who never had an opportunity to hear about Jesus.

Old 06-11-2010, 04:42 PM
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,283,587 times
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Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Context is so important

11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation (Christ) using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
First you have to be in Christ. Then your works are tested. This scripture is not about being purified by fire an thus become saved.

Gads! Talk about cherry picking theology.
WHAT kind of FIRE do you think this is??

(AND, tradition does it's FAIR SHARE of cherry picking! Oh, YES, it does!)
Old 06-11-2010, 07:52 PM
35,763 posts, read 23,947,227 times
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To the OP: Yes . . . we already are. Jesus saved the whole human race. BUT . . . that is not the end of the story or our task. The "structures" (moments of our lives carried as "flames of consciousness" into the very universe itself) will be tried as to their quality and the dross will be destroyed (we will suffer loss) . . . but we are still saved with whatever is left (the thirty-fold, 60-fold or 100-fold)..
Old 06-11-2010, 08:00 PM
Location: God's Country
21,182 posts, read 28,857,953 times
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
You can be confident all you want, but the Bible says otherwise. Yes, Jesus can save anyone he wants, but the Word of God says:

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.” 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

Jesus does not contradict His Holy Word.
Great post

Will ALL be saved? The answer is no.
Old 06-11-2010, 08:41 PM
309 posts, read 287,233 times
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Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I think we have fair warning.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him

Matt 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Nothing about hell fire here. So let's focus our discussion.
Mr5150....it is clear that you STILL think that one has the strength to choose God. You have yet to answer the post I provided to you on whether man has 'freewill'. So he it is again for you. Please explaing each of these scriptures for me.

If you can choose Christ solely upon your own freewill, then maybe YOU can explain what all these verses mean to us then, because Sir Mike555 will not answer them for us.

No one is saying that man does NOT have a will. I am just saying that man’s will is NOT FREE of the manipulation of God’s will.

Read ALL (please read all of it) of this and tell me WHERE you find man’s FREEWILL in it.

Does man have a free will?

Here we have the Israelites NOT YET passing over the Jordan and God tells us what they are going to do there, BEFORE they do it. He even has Moses script a song as a witness to it.

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (in the future?), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Now come on, who can do this but God Himself. Actually, all that they do there MUST happen or else how can it come to be an “ensample” to us. He sets their future, because he can…..

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Man can only follow God because He ‘causes’ them to do so…

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause (Heb: make) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And if they do not see or hear his calling, it is because God “causes” them not to…

Rom. 11:7,8 God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear".

It is God who moves one to do this or that….

2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here is a good example of someone who “thinks” he has something called a “free will”….

Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (therefore, it MUST come to pass). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.

God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.

Jas 4:13-15 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? ………..
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

He knew you “intimately” before you were born and BEFORE your supposed ’free will’ even existed. He knows exactly what you are going to do during your life……

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth [our wills, free or otherwise], nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (According to you EVERYBODY can)
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes and controls the honorable AND the dishonorable vessels. Even those who go against His own people….

Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psa 105:25 He turned their heart (Egypt) to hate his people, to deal subtlely with his servants

Before Moses even went to lead God’s people out of Egypt, God stated this to Moses…

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (Also See ...Exo 7:3, 9:12, 14:4, 14:17, 7:13-14, 7:22, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8).

Not only that who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?

Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

He didn’t just single Pharaoh out to do this, He does it to whomever He wishes

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their [the Canaanites'] hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

God predestines ALL to His own will….

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.

Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

And does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No, God does that too.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

He controls everything we do.....

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Here is Pilate's supposed free will speaking……

John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?

But where did this power really come from?

Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).

Can we really do good, of our own selves?

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.

The bible continues to show this truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, Hence “free will”):

This is the King of Assyria talking….
Isa 10:13-14
......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of what I have done or because I chose Christ that am saved.)

What else can Truth continue to say though, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want: (This is God talking!!)

Isa 10:10-12
As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [by using the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .

Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Sovereign God says:

Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood

This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesn’t even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?

Isaiah 10:5-8
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?

Even man's supposed "free will" to do evil is in control of God...

Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it [the evil they had done] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”

What happens to a prophet who is deceived?

Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Well thats understanding, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and …..

Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will?

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined BEFORE to be done.

Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye BE LED of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Man cannot “free will” his way into being a “vessel of honor”, God leads him there. If one be given a “good spirit” then is FROM THE LORD, but if one be given an “evil spirit” it too is FROM THE LORD.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit FROM THE LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:16, 19:9)

Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world. You must acknowledge WHAT YOU are, which is a sinner. The day that you see yourself as a worse sinner then Hitler himself…….

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

….is the day you will become closer to God, for your reward is the same. To hold onto one’s supposed “free will” is to remain blind to the truth of WHO is actually in control of ALL things, and He will give you this delusion for a time. But again, remember, it is a delusion. You must come to know what God HIMSELF compares to YOU. You are an AX and He swings YOU. You are His ROD, He uses YOU. You are His STAFF, His CLAY, His POT. None of these things in God’s eyes has a ’freewill’ to guild ITSELF. Do NOT question the POTTER. Man did NOT till the ground FIRST, if He had not tilled FIRST, you would NOT BE. You WILL do what God purposes for you to do. It is an illusion that you hold onto. “Every good thing comes from above”, so why take credit for the GOOD you do, when the GLORY should go to HIM. Man does have a WILL sir, and it is a WILL TO SIN, and none other. The only GOOD will is God’s and whatever good is done by Man has came from God so that man cannot correctly boast (of his own righteous will). If believing is GOOD, than He gave it to you. Every man is a TABERNACLE, and all have a MERCY SEAT. If it is empty (deny thyself, die daily) HE WILL SIT!! If ONE sits there on HIS throne, in His purposed time He will destroy him, but nevertheless HE WILL SIT IN HIS TABERNACLE!! Know this sir, you cannot thwart God’s will.

..............One must stop thinking that all the “If thou does this then….or…if thou does that then….”, utterances of God to mean that He is giving Man a choice, and start thinking that GOD is wanting MAN to know WHAT he (man) is, which is a SINNER. God gave the Israelites these “If thou….” warnings and told Moses WHAT they would follow BEFORE they followed it, and some weren’t even born yet. Pharaoh was given the same “If thou….”, warnings and GOD HIMSELF hardened the Pharaoh to go against them. If one is to keep thinking of these things with such a “carnal” mind, one must then come to the conclusion that the ALL MIGHTY GOD did not actually KNOW where Adam was when he ask the question “…..Where art thou?”

Think about it, it would NOT be so easy for God to do so if they were not ALL sinners (Do not the scripts say that “All have sinned”). This is why ALL have been seen by God as NOT believing, so that He can have mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The thing that most, who think like you, do not see is that YOU obtained mercy for their (Israel’s) very UNBELIEF. And you “in times past have NOT believed”. So what better way to bring them ALL into unbelief so he can have MERCY on ALL of them (and for one to bring up such claims as in, but it only states “they MAY obtain mercy” and God “MIGHT have mercy”, fails to see that these words MAY and MIGHT were not even penned in the original.). They ALL will have mercy. The salvation of an UNBELIEVING Israel is a mystery that you do not understand as of yet, for the “milk” you drink will not reveal it.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (but alas, YOU think you have found it)

You must understand that one cannot BELIEVE in God unless He brings them to belief, so if one be NOT believing, it is God who blinds them so. Satan and God are NOT in some constant struggle as some may think, who do you think God sends to do this Evil work? For Satan nor man can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Was it not God who GAVE Satan power over all that Job had??

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD

It begs to question here of just "WHO" the hand of God is. And was it not God who “moved” David to number Israel??

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [the Lord] moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (any study of Hebrew and LXX here will show that this is talking of God doing the moving)

And who did He send to do it??

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Was not God responsible for the “evil spirit” that was between Abimelech and Shechem??

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

If one is blinded because they BELIEVE in a lie, then who is responsible for that LIE being told by a “false prophet”??

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a [lying] spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (also II Chron. 18:21-22)

Man’s own ‘unawares’ are guided by God alone. Sampson’s own parents new that it was “unlawful” to take a wife of the Philistines (Ex. 34:12 & 16). But WHO moved Sampson to do such a thing??

Jdg 14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (the “it” is what Samson was doing).

And what better way to accomplish this then to just allow man to be WHAT he is (sinner), to do what he does best, which is follow the flesh.

Jdg 14:3....Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

Man is nothing more than a “sinner”, he does NO good apart from God moving him to do so. He simply does what he is created to do which is SIN. One cannot BELIEVE unless guided to believe.

On behalf of my UR brethren, I must say sorry for repeating these words from another thread, but I want to know what THEY think ALL these verses mean, if it does NOT mean that God is Soveriegn.

If one cannot see that God HIMSELF guides mankind, he must be totally BLINDED by their beliefs. If that is NOT what these verses mean, then please tell us what they mean. If we are SO INCORRECT in our thinking then tell us what they really mean then. To ignore them would only prove our point.

Mike555 refused to address any of these scriptures, only to give me links to read on the "freewill" of man. In respect to him, I read them. All I read was that Man was given a "choice" since creation and has chosen INCORRECTLY EVERYTIME, except when he was touched by God. This is all through the scripture. All we hear from most of Christianity is "DO....Oh man...DO". All Universalists that I have ever known came to the point of just "KNOWING THAT THEY CANNOT DO IT!!", therefore they dont want to guide themselves with "DO....Oh Man....DO" anymore, but rather let Christ BE THERE MIND instead of their own wills running theirselves. It is so much easier to DIE to one's self (and to WHATEVER will they have, free or otherwise).

If one must hold on to this "idol of the heart" called "freewill", then they MUST contend with these verses I have exposed to them. They will haunt you if you dont. Heck I will haunt you with them. So tell me what they mean if we the "UR's" are so wrong.
Old 06-11-2010, 09:00 PM
309 posts, read 287,233 times
Reputation: 58
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
What do you not understand about everlasting destruction?

v. 10 all those who believe

The others are in everlasting destruction.
CW2L....did you choose Christ??
Old 06-11-2010, 09:19 PM
309 posts, read 287,233 times
Reputation: 58
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Context is so important
Mr5150....Question for you.

Why did your Lord Jesus Christ burn incense to graven images??
Old 06-11-2010, 09:26 PM
2 posts, read 3,832 times
Reputation: 10
Smile Love

We seem to hang on to the details of what would possibly occur if we were evil and sinned. The truth is you wouldn’t need to worry about it if you knew you were moving on a pure path completely and faithfully. The truth is this nagging feeling is your spirit telling you, you have some work to do from the inside out.
One cannot be saved without following his callings. What calling I don’t experience that is what you may be saying. You know these callings, you get it every day. The pull that occurs when you know you should have been more patient, opened the door for someone in need, come clear on a lie, let someone go, or let someone into your life etc.
All religions have one common thing love and respect your neighbour. Put others before yourself. If we all decided to do this tomorrow we wouldn't need to be as selfish and egotistical as we have grown to be. One would truly believe that someone cares for our best interest.
The true point is to stay pure within your heart. Forgive, forget, indulge into love, don’t hold grudges, lie, cheat, etc. All the things you know you should not be doing and as an added coincidence all the things that wear your body down and shortens your life.
We need to start looking at the positive things that will occur when we do follow faithfully. Everlasting life! What I have realized it is very deep but I can sum it up as.....
True sin is a conscious thing.
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