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How could the Creator be so thoughtless, and not warn millions of people of a fate they did not even know awaited them? Could this be just? Could this be loving?
I think we have fair warning.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him
Matt 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Nothing about hell fire here. So let's focus our discussion.
Matt 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιναιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
Rotherham, who is said to have been friend of Spurgeon, translates:
And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.
as you see this translation is in accordance with the meanings given for aionios and kolasis by the Liddl Scott, which I think is the absolute reference
therefore this verse alone does not say that not everybody will be saved, neither the opposite
Matt 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
1 Sam 2:6
The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell, and bringeth back again. (Douay Rheims Bible)
the bible teaches deliverance from "hell", you might argue that "hell" is a mistranslation in this verse, as "hell" doesn't appear in the KJV in this instance; but you if you do so, maybe "hell" is equally a mistranslation in Matthew 10:28? Do you have an explanation why "hell" occurs in many instances in the KJV in the Old Testament, however in this instance "hell" (sheol) has been rendered "grave" by the KJV, you might also look here.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him
it doesn't say that this condition must remain changeless, perpetually for all time; everybody has once in his live not believed in Christ and was disobedient, I don't know if "reject" is a proper translation of apeitheo
therefore none of this verses contradict the witness of the bible, that God is the savior of all men:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.(1Tim. 4:10)
Originally Posted by C-Dposter
How could the Creator be so thoughtless, and not warn millions of people of a fate they did not even know awaited them? Could this be just? Could this be loving?
Luke 16
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Pay close attention to verses 30 & 31. As the scriptures point out, people will not accept any signs or warnings from God; they would simply dismiss them. Many people don't want God and His holiness, so that makes them unreasonable.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him
Matt 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Nothing about hell fire here. So let's focus our discussion.
Well, if He destroys our bodies (and our thoughts with them) in the grave, what are you going to do about it? BUT, he kills and makes alive again. That free gift is upon ALL men. I certainly "fear" (respect, reverence) the one who can bring me to life and then destroy me in the grave. FEAR HIM! Nothing else.
Luke 16
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Pay close attention to verses 30 & 31. As the scriptures point out, people will not accept any signs or warnings from God; they would simply dismiss them. Many people don't want God and His holiness, so that makes them unreasonable.
That is a GREAT parable. AND, the Jews did NOT believe even though Christ rose, did they?
Matt 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιναιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
Rotherham, who is said to have been friend of Spurgeon, translates:
And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.
as you see this translation is in accordance with the meanings given for aionios and kolasis by the Liddl Scott, which I think is the absolute reference
therefore this verse alone does not say that not everybody will be saved, neither the opposite
No, it is not age-abiding correction. That is nothing but universalist claptrap.
First of all, Matt 25:46 refers back to Matt 25:41 which reads as follows ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
This is a reference to the baptism of fire, in which Tribulational unbelievers are cast off the earth into the eternal fire at the Lord's return. No unbeliever will enter into the Millennial kingdom. This was prophesied by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:12 where the wheat (the believer) is gathered into the barn, but the chaff (the unbeliever) is burned up with unquenchable fire.
Those who don't believe that can do some 'Honest research' and verify it. I already covered this on another thread.
Then Matthew 25:46 continues. ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. ''
It is not age-abiding. It is eternal. Those who want to dispute the meaning of the word Aionion can dispute the follow resources.
Matthew 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment (eis kolasin aionion) and eternal life (eis zoen aionion). The passage is one of contrast. Eternal life contrasted with eternal punishment.
It is the same contrast that is found in John 3:36. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Quote:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
1 Sam 2:6
The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell, and bringeth back again. (Douay Rheims Bible)
1 Sam 2:6 is a reference to the grave. Not to hell.
Quote:
the bible teaches deliverance from "hell", you might argue that "hell" is a mistranslation in this verse, as "hell" doesn't appear in the KJV in this instance; but you if you do so, maybe "hell" is equally a mistranslation in Matthew 10:28? Do you have an explanation why "hell" occurs in many instances in the KJV in the Old Testament, however in this instance "hell" (sheol) has been rendered "grave" by the KJV, you might also look here.
The Bible does not teach deliverance from hell.
Matthew 10:28 reads ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA (HELL-the lake of fire).
Gehenna is not referring to the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. The soul survives the death of the body as the passage makes clear. The soul cannot be destroyed in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. The Jews of the time understood Jesus' use of the word Gehenna as a description of the lake of fire.
Quote:
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him
it doesn't say that this condition must remain changeless, perpetually for all time; everybody has once in his live not believed in Christ and was disobedient, I don't know if "reject" is a proper translation of apeitheo
therefore none of this verses contradict the witness of the bible, that God is the savior of all men:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.(1Tim. 4:10)
All who die without believing in Christ are eternally lost. John 3:36 contrasts those who have eternal life with those who will not see life. EVER. Will not see life. That's an absolute. God's wrath remains on him forever.
1 Tim 4:10 Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men in that he died for the sins of the world. Only those who believe in Him for salvation are the recipients of His saving work. As it says in John 3:16, ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
You are the one saying NO. I say Yes because that is what I believe.
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