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Old 12-06-2010, 08:13 PM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 10,364,337 times
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This is one of the religions that has scary posters of demons and people running away screaming in front of the churches and the people go to church for a very long time in the morning and then come back in the afternoon.


Think of the damage to little children who see these posters and also the good that could be done in the community if these people were spending their time volunteering instead of listening to who-knows-what for hours on end.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:52 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,283,491 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
That's supposed to prove something? Catholics can claim that Jesus Christ founded their Church but that doesn't make it so. I doubt Jesus would even recognize the Church He founded in the Catholic Church that exists today. Of course, you know what Church I'd say He founded, juj. So we're back at square one.
Peter was given the authority by Jesus Christ and the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Peter as head of Jesus's Chuch was given the Authority to form the Church any way he saw fit. That same authority was passed by Apostolic succession and still resides in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. No other churches have the history, connection, artifacts, churches, or documents, to prove they were around back to the beginning of Christianity. I know the SDA's and LDS'ers say they are the second coming of the real church, but that is just bunk. It never went away. Besides, Jesus wouldn't appreciate you telling Him that His Church failed since in the Bible says that He will protect her. But since Jesus doesn't lie, and His Church still remains. How many 2000 year organizations are you familiar with? Just submit to the truth. It's feels so much better.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:12 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,209,887 times
Reputation: 3933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Wow. Sounds like some serious bondage. This kind of "marriage" relationship would not make for a happy couple. It more resembles a dominance/bondage relationship than a love relationship. Religion has the power to turn men into beasts.
Yes, it does. The SDA church is one of the more harmful ones out there. Avoid it at all costs.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,259 posts, read 20,859,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Peter was given the authority by Jesus Christ and the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Agreed.

Quote:
Peter as head of Jesus's Chuch was given the Authority to form the Church any way he saw fit.
Any way he saw fit? Yeah, right. He said, "Upon this rock I will build my Church." He didn't say, "you will build my Church." Jesus Christ's Church was established the way He saw fit, not the way someone else (including Peter) saw fit. It was built upon a foundation of prophets and apostles, and it was to continue to have that organization until we all came into a unity of faith. Since we're not there yet, there obviously continues to be a need for prophets and apostles.

Quote:
That same authority was passed by Apostolic succession and still resides in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches.
Apostolic succession but no apostles. That's a good one. And as far as the Orthodox Churches are concerned, how on earth could they have the same authority as the Catholic Church if they don't accept the Pope? If they both held the same authority, there would have been no split. That should be obvious enough.

Quote:
No other churches have the history, connection, artifacts, churches, or documents, to prove they were around back to the beginning of Christianity.
That's utter nonsense. What documents does the Catholic Church have that date back to 33 A.D? As for artifacts and churches, what artifacts and churches do you have in mind that would actually prove that the Catholic Church was "the Church" Christ built?

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I know the SDA's and LDS'ers say they are the second coming of the real church, but that is just bunk.
Sorry, as far as I'm concerned Catholicism is bunk.

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It never went away.
It sure did, but He re-established it.

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Besides, Jesus wouldn't appreciate you telling Him that His Church failed since in the Bible says that He will protect her.
He didn't say that. He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church and they haven't. You're just interpreting Matthew differently than I do.

Quote:
But since Jesus doesn't lie, and His Church still remains. How many 2000 year organizations are you familiar with?
None.

Quote:
Just submit to the truth. It's feels so much better.
I have, and it does. It feels much, much better.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:31 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,283,491 times
Reputation: 330
God doesn't do a giant head fake as the SDA's and LDS'ers say happened to Christianity. Look you can believe what you want to but just know that virtually the entire Christian world including the original churches don't agree that the trail of Christianity went cold until the mid-nineteenth century. You guys have a tough job selling your story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Any way he saw fit? Yeah, right. He said, "Upon this rock I will build my Church." He didn't say, "you will build my Church." Jesus Christ's Church was established the way He saw fit, not the way someone else (including Peter) saw fit. It was built upon a foundation of prophets and apostles, and it was to continue to have that organization until we all came into a unity of faith. Since we're not there yet, there obviously continues to be a need for prophets and apostles.

Apostolic succession but no apostles. That's a good one. And as far as the Orthodox Churches are concerned, how on earth could they have the same authority as the Catholic Church if they don't accept the Pope? If they both held the same authority, there would have been no split. That should be obvious enough.
Yes, as Peter saw fit. Yes, he had help from the Apostles.

Matthew 16:18-19

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys (authority) of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind (forbid) on earth shall be bound (forbidden) in heaven, and whatever you loose (permit) on earth shall be loosed (permitted) in heaven."

Since Peter was given the authority to permit and to forbid. Then, yes, as he saw fit. I could reword it, but it basically means what the verses say.

The Catholic Church was the only Christian church, the one catholic and apostolic church, for over 1000 years. Yes, the Orthodox Churches and their priests are the descendents of the Apostles that ran districts like Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth, etc. So, yes they have Apostolic succession. What they fail to have is ultimate authority which presided in Rome with Peter and his successors. Every organization needs a head and for the one catholic and apostolic church, that head resided in Rome.

Early Church Father Iraneus , Against Heresies (Written ~180-190 AD), Book III, Chapter 3, verse 2: (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm)

"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." All the Apostles are dead by this time period and yet the Catholic Church based in Rome is alive and well and clearly considered the head of the Christian faith.

As for prophets, Jesus is the alpha and omega. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He will come again and it will be known. End of story. No need for prophets. At least not any ones that say hey guess what, Christianity was a head fake, so let me tell you what really happened.

The Apostolic Authority is still alive today in Catholic and Orthodox priests.

Last edited by juj; 12-07-2010 at 09:24 PM..
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,259 posts, read 20,859,174 times
Reputation: 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Yes, as Peter saw fit. Yes, he had help from the Apostles.

Matthew 16:18-19

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys (authority) of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind (forbid) on earth shall be bound (forbidden) in heaven, and whatever you loose (permit) on earth shall be loosed (permitted) in heaven."

Since Peter was given the authority to permit and to forbid. Then, yes, as he saw fit. I could reword it, but it basically means what the verses say.
I disagree. I don't know how you can manage to interpret "bind" as "forbid" or "loose" as "permit." That's not what the words mean, by any stretch of the Catholic imagination. The word "bind" has roughly a dozen definitions (if you use any decent dictionary) and none of them is even remotely similar to "forbid." The same with "loose"; whether you go with one of the various defintions listed or with an actual synonym, you're not going to come up with something meaning "permit." Among the definitions of "bind" are "to hold or to secure." Similarly, "loose" means "to free or to unbind." Jesus was telling Peter that by virtue of the authority He gave him, the things he (Peter) would do, and the ordinances (i.e. sacraments) he would perform would have eternal significance. They would endure beyond the grave, in Heaven as well as on earth.

Quote:
The Catholic Church was the only Christian church, the one catholic and apostolic church, for over 1000 years. Yes, the Orthodox Churches and their priests are the descendents of the Apostles that ran districts like Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth, etc. So, yes they have Apostolic succession. What they fail to have is ultimate authority which presided in Rome with Peter and his successors. Every organization needs a head and for the one catholic and apostolic church, that head resided in Rome.
They do not submit to the individual you believe to be the ultimate authority of the institutional Church today. That would be reason enough, it seems to me, so say they no longer hold the same authority as you do. And how you can claim they are descendants of the Apostles is beyond me. There is not one Catholic or Orthodox priest alive who can trace his authority back to any of the original apostles. If I'm wrong, don't just say it; prove it.


Quote:
As for prophets, Jesus is the alpha and omega. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He will come again and it will be known. End of story. No need for prophets. At least not any ones that say hey guess what, Christianity was a head fake, so let me tell you what really happened.
Christianity was a head fake? What on earth is that supposed to mean?

Quote:
The Apostolic Authority is still alive today in Catholic and Orthodox priests.
Afraid not. It's alive today, but not where you're looking.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:01 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,283,491 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I disagree. I don't know how you can manage to interpret "bind" as "forbid" or "loose" as "permit." That's not what the words mean, by any stretch of the Catholic imagination. The word "bind" has roughly a dozen definitions (if you use any decent dictionary) and none of them is even remotely similar to "forbid." The same with "loose"; whether you go with one of the various defintions listed or with an actual synonym, you're not going to come up with something meaning "permit." Among the definitions of "bind" are "to hold or to secure." Similarly, "loose" means "to free or to unbind." Jesus was telling Peter that by virtue of the authority He gave him, the things he (Peter) would do, and the ordinances (i.e. sacraments) he would perform would have eternal significance. They would endure beyond the grave, in Heaven as well as on earth.
Please explain Matt. 16:19. Explain 'bind' and 'loose.' (http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=502 - broken link)
from J.W. McGarvey in his commentary on Matthew:

"The words "bind" and "loose" were commonly used among the Jews in the sense of forbid and allow." (Permit, allow, no difference)

Catholic don't have to make things up. That's what I love about the Church.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,259 posts, read 20,859,174 times
Reputation: 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Please explain Matt. 16:19. Explain 'bind' and 'loose.' (http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=502 - broken link)
from J.W. McGarvey in his commentary on Matthew:

"The words "bind" and "loose" were commonly used among the Jews in the sense of forbid and allow." (Permit, allow, no difference)
Interesting. That particular sentence falls in quite nicely with what Catholics believe. The rest of what he says seems to tie in nicely to what Mormons believe.

Quote:
Catholic don't have to make things up. That's what I love about the Church.
That's nice. I'm glad you love your Church. I love mine. I'd push you for answers to my other questions, but considering the fact that this thread is neither about Catholicism or Mormonism, what do you say we get back to the topic of the OP and continue our argument some other time?
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:45 AM
 
115 posts, read 110,445 times
Reputation: 22
>God doesn't do a giant head fake as the SDA's and LDS'ers say happened to Christianity.

I can't speak for the LDS, but I don't do "head fakes." I go by the Bible and history.

For example, did you know that at least as late as the 5th century most Christians around the Med were still keeping the Sabbath? Did you know that at least as late as when the (now) Leaning Tower of Pisa was built that they were still practicing baptism by immersion? Why did the church wander away fo biblical truth?
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,259 posts, read 20,859,174 times
Reputation: 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin View Post
>God doesn't do a giant head fake as the SDA's and LDS'ers say happened to Christianity.
I'm sorry... What's a "head fake." Since I'm LDS, I supposedly think this is what happened to Christianity, but I don't even know what that is.

Last edited by Katzpur; 05-31-2012 at 08:47 AM..
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