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Old 06-16-2010, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,111,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post

Isa 66:23
"And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

You would have to change these verses in meaning completely to make your doctrine stick. Some say it is the 'new man' looking at the 'old man' that they are seeing. I disagree. It says what it says, and means what it says.
Yes, the New Man! (How many of us have transgressed against the Lord?)

Blessings to you,
brian
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:38 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,374,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Yes, the New Man! (How many of us have transgressed against the Lord?)

Blessings to you,
brian
EVERYONE! Thank our God and Father for sending His Son for the likes of us sinners.

Want to see the 'New Man'? Read these verses, closely!!

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But IF anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
IF Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But IF the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

How many 'if's do you see? Can you see them? The 'New Man' is only for those who are one with the Spirit of Christ.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for IF you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

For ALL who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

And ALL these people will bow and honor Jesus.
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,111,650 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
EVERYONE! Thank our God and Father for sending His Son for the likes of us sinners.

Want to see the 'New Man'? Read these verses, closely!!

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But IF anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
IF Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But IF the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

How many 'if's do you see? Can you see them? The 'New Man' is only for those who are one with the Spirit of Christ.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for IF you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

For ALL who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

And ALL these people will bow and honor Jesus.


blessings,
brian
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
EVERYONE! Thank our God and Father for sending His Son for the likes of us sinners.

Want to see the 'New Man'? Read these verses, closely!!

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But IF anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
IF Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But IF the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

How many 'if's do you see? Can you see them? The 'New Man' is only for those who are one with the Spirit of Christ.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for IF you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

For ALL who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

And ALL these people will bow and honor Jesus.
Yes they do.... but isn't it clear in Rev. that EVERYTHING is made new?
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post

Isa 66:23
"And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

You would have to change these verses in meaning completely to make your doctrine stick. Some say it is the 'new man' looking at the 'old man' that they are seeing. I disagree. It says what it says, and means what it says.
If you look closely at that passage in Isa. (verse 23), you will see that ALL MANKIND is the "they" in verse 24. Therefore All Mankind will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who transgressed against him... How is all mankind looking at themselves burning?
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:31 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,374,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If you look closely at that passage in Isa. (verse 23), you will see that ALL MANKIND is the "they" in verse 24. Therefore All Mankind will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who transgressed against him... How is all mankind looking at themselves burning?
I have looked closely at both verses. They mean what they say.

The ALL MANKIND is those who are left IN CHRIST. For what is man? Read Genesis for definition. It doesn't mean every single person who has ever lived.

And the 'They' in verse 24 are those IN CHRIST. The same who are 'made' into the image of the second MAN, which is CHRIST. Not Adam. Romans 5 explains this well.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I have looked closely at both verses. They mean what they say.

The ALL MANKIND is those who are left IN CHRIST. For what is man? Read Genesis for definition. It doesn't mean every single person who has ever lived.

And the 'They' in verse 24 are those IN CHRIST. The same who are 'made' into the image of the second MAN, which is CHRIST. Not Adam. Romans 5 explains this well.
You are looking so close it seems you are seeing things not there. ALL Mankind has never meant a small group. ALL mankind looks upon their own dead bodies... and are ashamed...

Verse 22 makes it plain that all things are made new... the new mankind looks upon the old mankind and is ashamed.

I believe it is pretty plain that the old and new are contrasted. "In Christ" is not in that verse. It is dealing with the nation of Israel (that was cut off) and applying the benefits of the new to all mankind not simply the nation of Israel.

Why would you place Romans 5 next to Isaiah? Where is the reasoning there? if you would explain that may help me to see why you jumped from the OT to the NT.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:46 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,374,504 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You are looking so close it seems you are seeing things not there. ALL Mankind has never meant a small group. ALL mankind looks upon their own dead bodies... and are ashamed...
Why would they be ashamed at their own dead bodies? They are made new in Christ, which is something to be joyous about, not ashamed. It is a glorious time, not a sorrowful one.

Quote:
Verse 22 makes it plain that all things are made new... the new mankind looks upon the old mankind and is ashamed.
Now who is reading into something that isn't there? It does not say that, so why assume that? It doesn't even line up with scripture,,,does it?

Quote:
I believe it is pretty plain that the old and new are contrasted. "In Christ" is not in that verse. It is dealing with the nation of Israel (that was cut off) and applying the benefits of the new to all mankind not simply the nation of Israel.
It is dealing with Jesus Christ, who IS Israel. The old covenant was broken off, and the new was brought into being by Him who made it. Has nothing to do with 'nations'.

Quote:
Why would you place Romans 5 next to Isaiah?
Because this is where we see the contrast between the old and the new man. So, why wouldn't you?

Again, you stated it was the new man looking upon the corpses of their OWN old man bodies. But it does not say that, so I pointed you to where the old is contrasted with the new. Romans 5.

Quote:
Where is the reasoning there? if you would explain that may help me to see why you jumped from the OT to the NT.
Because the scriptures MUST and DO line up perfectly with each other,,in EVERY BOOK, from beginning to end.

And just because they did not specify being IN Christ in the OT, I completely understand that is what it means.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Why would they be ashamed at their own dead bodies? They are made new in Christ, which is something to be joyous about, not ashamed. It is a glorious time, not a sorrowful one.
Think spiritually here.... don't we all wish our past mistakes would just go away? That our sins would be remembered no more? Abhorring what we used to be IS celebrating what we have become...


Quote:
Now who is reading into something that isn't there? It does not say that, so why assume that? It doesn't even line up with scripture,,,does it?
Isa. 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure."

I said:
Quote:
Verse 22 makes it plain that all things are made new...
And my conclusion was:
Quote:
the new mankind looks upon the old mankind and is ashamed.
So are you disagreeing that God will make all things new? I don't know why.. it is repeated in Rev. 22.

Quote:
It is dealing with Jesus Christ, who IS Israel. The old covenant was broken off, and the new was brought into being by Him who made it. Has nothing to do with 'nations'.
I didn't say it had anything to do with "nations" but with the nation of Israel, which you say is spiritually representative of Christ ( I don't disagree even though I would say Christ is the representative of Israel) so again I don't see what you are disagreeing with. If all things are new then there is no reason to think that verse 24 of Isaiah 66 refers to annihilation or eternal torment.


Quote:
Because this is where we see the contrast between the old and the new man. So, why wouldn't you?

Again, you stated it was the new man looking upon the corpses of their OWN old man bodies. But it does not say that, so I pointed you to where the old is contrasted with the new. Romans 5.
Ok... so it says that ALL mankind is looking on dead bodies.. so who are the dead bodies if all mankind is accounted for as being looking at those dead bodies?

How else do you read it?

Quote:
Because the scriptures MUST and DO line up perfectly with each other,,in EVERY BOOK, from beginning to end.

And just because they did not specify being IN Christ in the OT, I completely understand that is what it means.
I agree that all scripture does line up perfectly... and if you believe "in Christ" is in the OT then your understanding is not complete.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:58 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I have looked closely at both verses. They mean what they say.

The ALL MANKIND is those who are left IN CHRIST. For what is man? Read Genesis for definition. It doesn't mean every single person who has ever lived.

And the 'They' in verse 24 are those IN CHRIST. The same who are 'made' into the image of the second MAN, which is CHRIST. Not Adam. Romans 5 explains this well.

All die in Adam ... All are made alive in Christ. How many die in Adam? Everyone who has ever lived. Who will be made alive in Christ? Everyone who has ever lived. For God shall cause all to become one together in Christ. He will Have all people to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth. Even you ... Some day.


Selah ...
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