U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-16-2010, 07:28 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,381,641 times
Reputation: 580

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
We have to put the truth to the lie people. Hotinaz is lying and he knows it as i and many others have already shown the proof that originally the early church believed in the salvation of all.


Here hotinaz, is truth. You and no one else can deny it ...



Universalism was the original Gospel taught and preached throughout the world. Those who believe in ET will lie and say that Universlaism is a new religion. But in fact the majority of Christians in the first 4 centuries taught and believed in universalism.

AND THAT IS A FACT ...



Amen ...
So, if most of the early Christians in the first few hundred years were Universalists, then does it make them right? Wide is the road which LEADS to destruction. In anyone is in the majority, then it is time to WATCH OUT!! LOL.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-16-2010, 07:41 PM
 
968 posts, read 719,822 times
Reputation: 394
Quote:
If I am God, per say. Then I decree what is right, and what is wrong. And the primary reason for this, is to give you the chance to come unto me, as your God and your Creator, willingly on your own. I have given you the most precious gift of ALL, because I KNOW you will break my commands, so if ONLY you would accept the gift, which is the blood of my own Son, you can then come unto me. Will you come to me? Out of Love? Because I love you? Your call, and your choice.
So then, if I willingly on my own like you said come to God, then I could brag once I get to heaven because my decision was my own, right?

So what does John 15:16 mean? -> "You didnít choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name"

Or what about John 6:44 -> "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Come on HotinAZ. Let's put aside scripture just for a minute and use some common sense. Are you a parent? Would you ever give one of your kids a timeout.....for eternity? Would you annihilate one of your own kids for misbehaving? If hardhearted sinners like ourselves aren't even capable of doing this to our own children, how can God, who is love do it?

Your following the traditions of men, not the Spirit of God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
People who have something to hide, need a blanket to cover them up. This is all UR is, a blanket.

They refuse to see in the perfect and complete justice of God. They question the potter though they be nothing but clay. I mean really. It is one thing to reason with God, for this He calls us to do. It is another to jump on a bandwagon and believe whatever doctrine is thrown our way, no matter how lovely and sensible it is. It HAS to LINE UP with the WHOLE of SCRIPTURE, period.

I have seen people just throw Yahweh out completely, because His justice was too harsh for them. I have seen people worship idols, and doctrines, and even bibles. It is cult-like. They cannot even hold a conversation without their doctrine being thrown in there, like it is some little secret nugget the rest of the world is blinded to. I mean really.

You seriously don't think there were 'enlightened' men who pondered over the very same scriptures you all latch onto? Why did they not receive this? Instead, they alarmed the public about the horrors of being eternally seperated from the Father, either by fire, or just completely out of existence, which BTW, I believe.

This is why the continuing unrepentant sinners flock to those churches. Why should they repent? They are saved already, right??? Even the preachers,,,uggh. Delusional is the proper word. Tickles the ears, for sure, but it does not line up with the WHOLE of scripture, which is why so many just throw out the ENTIRE OT. They should though. Their God is different, and also their Jesus. So be it.
Yet you miss the whole point! The POTTER shapes the pot... therefore what reasoning is there for the Potter not to shape salvation for all?

If it is up to man then man becomes the potter.. right? So what you are saying is that the Potter is only the potter when humans allow it...

But then the Potter wants all men to come to him but apparently he just annihilates those men who don't want to? How is that a potter? Isn't that a destroyer? Just think about pottery if you will... if the first try doesn't work.. does the potter throw away the clay? or does he just re-mold it?

Something doesn't add up..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 08:18 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,381,641 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
So then, if I willingly on my own like you said come to God, then I could brag once I get to heaven because my decision was my own, right?
Is it worth 'bragging' about? Isn't bragging a form a pride?

Quote:
So what does John 15:16 mean? -> "You didnít choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name"
This was in reference to His Disciples. Notice, He walked around calling them out.

Quote:
Or what about John 6:44 -> "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Everyone is drawn at some point. What they do with it, is their choice.

Quote:
Come on HotinAZ. Let's put aside scripture just for a minute and use some common sense.
You can use reason, but leave the common sense out of it please. Our 'common sense' is shaped by our environment, our cultures, and our lifestyles. So really it is biased from the get go. God's isn't, and who are we to question God? Reason for Truth, but do not question His integrity whiile doing so.

Quote:
Are you a parent?
Yep, I have been blessed with 5 children.

Quote:
Would you ever give one of your kids a timeout.....for eternity?
What kind of question is this?

Quote:
Would you annihilate one of your own kids for misbehaving?
Another hypothetical question. I cannot answer it honestly.

Quote:
If hardhearted sinners like ourselves aren't even capable of doing this to our own children, how can God, who is love do it?
Which is why there is a Way out. His Son. But it is a GIFT which MUST be received. You cannot force someone to take anything. Even out of love.

Quote:
Your following the traditions of men, not the Spirit of God.
Actually, I am bucking them all, thank you. The Spirit is ALL I follow and my King is my ONLY King, and my God is my ONLY God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 08:26 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,381,641 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet you miss the whole point! The POTTER shapes the pot... therefore what reasoning is there for the Potter not to shape salvation for all?
He did 'shape' salvation for all when He begat Jesus Christ. Right? Even a Potter to Him, who was perfect.

Quote:
If it is up to man then man becomes the potter.. right?
Man's choice is to be molded at all. We are the clay. Are you forced to accept fate? Or do you decide your fate? IOW can you shape your earthly destiny, or do you feel it is out of your hands?

Quote:
So what you are saying is that the Potter is only the potter when humans allow it...
No, what I am saying is that God doesn't even begin to shape the clay into something new until it comes to Him and He begins molding it. Otherwise, it is nothing but a lump of clay, which is what we are were in Adam.

Quote:
But then the Potter wants all men to come to him but apparently he just annihilates those men who don't want to?
See, now you are on to something. Read my statement above and think of it this way. I don't say how judgement comes to those who have never heard the gospel, but rather to those who have.

If a lump of clay is in the Father hands to become a 'new creation' and then they fall away,,,then the pot is broken and destroyed, yes. Ever read Noah's Flood? Lots of Adamic pots broken back then.


Quote:
How is that a potter? Isn't that a destroyer?
Actually the potter can destroy his own creation. Why not? He has done it before, and it says He will do it again.

Quote:
Just think about pottery if you will... if the first try doesn't work.. does the potter throw away the clay? or does he just re-mold it?
Yep, until it is BAKED, and then it is too late. Once you have received the knowledge of the Truth and then have fallen away, there is no longer any repentence, because you crucify the Son of God again and again.

Quote:
Something doesn't add up..
Actually, it adds up beautifully.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 08:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,334 posts, read 20,066,943 times
Reputation: 2113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post

Come on HotinAZ. Let's put aside scripture just for a minute and use some common sense. Are you a parent? Would you ever give one of your kids a timeout.....for eternity? Would you annihilate one of your own kids for misbehaving? If hardhearted sinners like ourselves aren't even capable of doing this to our own children, how can God, who is love do it?

If i can show more love, mercy and forgiveness to a wayward child of mine than what the orthodox christian god can , then sorry i cannot accept their god in any way shape or form.

Because if i can find something in my own heart that the orthodox christian can't , it comes down to 1 of 2 things , 1, i have more love , mercy and forgiveness than the christian god or 2, the God of love dwelling in me has more love than the christian orthodox god.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 08:54 PM
 
968 posts, read 719,822 times
Reputation: 394
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Is it worth 'bragging' about? Isn't bragging a form a pride?



This was in reference to His Disciples. Notice, He walked around calling them out.



Everyone is drawn at some point. What they do with it, is their choice.



You can use reason, but leave the common sense out of it please. Our 'common sense' is shaped by our environment, our cultures, and our lifestyles. So really it is biased from the get go. God's isn't, and who are we to question God? Reason for Truth, but do not question His integrity whiile doing so.



Yep, I have been blessed with 5 children.



What kind of question is this?



Another hypothetical question. I cannot answer it honestly.



Which is why there is a Way out. His Son. But it is a GIFT which MUST be received. You cannot force someone to take anything. Even out of love.



Actually, I am bucking them all, thank you. The Spirit is ALL I follow and my King is my ONLY King, and my God is my ONLY God.
In all due respect, you dance around my questions without answering them and then ask what kind of question is this in reference to giving a child a timeout? You also ask why would I brag getting up to heaven and state that would be prideful.

Your missing my points, I suspect on purpose.

All I can say is this, if your God is the one in control and not the one that I worship, I want no part of him. I have no desire to worship a sadistic monster.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
He did 'shape' salvation for all when He begat Jesus Christ. Right? Even a Potter to Him, who was perfect.
so why annihilation if salvation was complete in Christ?


Quote:
Man's choice is to be molded at all. We are the clay. Are you forced to accept fate? Or do you decide your fate? IOW can you shape your earthly destiny, or do you feel it is out of your hands?
Earthly destiny? If it is man's choice to be molded at all then the clay is refusing to be molded... thus the clay is dictating to the potter what is done... that is not what scripture states. The potter is the dictator... the clay has no say! What an obvious contradiction to both the scripture and the reality of the analogy the scripture uses!



Quote:
No, what I am saying is that God doesn't even begin to shape the clay into something new until it comes to Him and He begins molding it. Otherwise, it is nothing but a lump of clay, which is what we are were in Adam.
Clay doesn't make itself available... does it? you are turning the analogy into something else. Clay is formed by the potter.. prior to being made into something it does not have any purpose... thus the potter creates the purpose.. really you have to admit your response is really lacking. For someone who professes to seek the truth it is obvious you don't want the truth! I have to wonder why you are so afraid to embrace UR!



Quote:
See, now you are on to something. Read my statement above and think of it this way. I don't say how judgement comes to those who have never heard the gospel, but rather to those who have.

If a lump of clay is in the Father hands to become a 'new creation' and then they fall away,,,then the pot is broken and destroyed, yes. Ever read Noah's Flood? Lots of Adamic pots broken back then.
However, it was the Jewish custom to use broken pots for gathering coals from the fire and scooping liquids. So really there is not destroyed pots only a different form, yet still useful. The analogy really doesn't work for annihilation.


Quote:
Actually the potter can destroy his own creation. Why not? He has done it before, and it says He will do it again.
Hmmm... I agree he can.. however you must first establish that this would be his desire and as we know there is no instance where God desires his creation to be forever annihilated or tortured but instead he desires that all men come to him. So really you are saying that the creation dictates what the creator does! I don't think that works very well.


Quote:
Yep, until it is BAKED, and then it is too late. Once you have received the knowledge of the Truth and then have fallen away, there is no longer any repentence, because you crucify the Son of God again and again.
First problem is then in witnessing because the sharing of the gospel would be a BAD thing because there would be no repentance... so to be ignorant would be better. Also, how is a pot baked? with heat/fire? Well then... if the fire of the lake of fire is the one that bakes the pot don't we have a problem with your theory? Then the clay only becomes a useful pot once God has refined it and baked it. Also, study the habits of the Jews of the first century regarding pottery. It is helpful in determining what is meant by the potter and the clay analogy.


Quote:
Actually, it adds up beautifully.
so many contradictions.. so little time!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 11:00 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,381,641 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
If i can show more love, mercy and forgiveness to a wayward child of mine than what the orthodox christian god can , then sorry i cannot accept their god in any way shape or form.

Because if i can find something in my own heart that the orthodox christian can't , it comes down to 1 of 2 things , 1, i have more love , mercy and forgiveness than the christian god or 2, the God of love dwelling in me has more love than the christian orthodox god.
Oh trust me pcamps, I know we somehow serve different gods. I have known this for some time. You serve the one masquerading as an angel of light. When Maitreya appears, the Universalists will embrace him as the second coming. He preaches what you preach.


YouTube - MAITREYA Star CNN Commercial LOOK FOR HIS RETURN!!!! 2ND COMING!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-16-2010, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Oh trust me pcamps, I know we somehow serve different gods. I have known this for some time. You serve the one masquerading as an angel of light. When Maitreya appears, the Universalists will embrace him as the second coming. He preaches what you preach.


YouTube - MAITREYA Star CNN Commercial LOOK FOR HIS RETURN!!!! 2ND COMING!!
LOL it just shows how little you understand God... God is the only true God thus all God ARE God! There are no other gods beside him! Call him Fred if you want it will still be the same God.... What you and I think of him doesn't really matter does it? Aren't you interested in searching out the one true God?

The other thing is that I am not a futurist so I would have no problem not recognizing any return of Christ....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top