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Old 06-18-2010, 08:16 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
If you physically die before you have received Jesus as your Lord and Savior...truly born again...changed into the character of Christ...living in obedient faith...in the will of the Father...but instead, continuing to wilfully sin...you will not enter into heaven with the LORD for all eternity...Period...
You are correct. Paul warned:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal. 5:19-21)

"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." (Eph. 5:5-6)
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:42 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,763,217 times
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Yes, these persons listed will not inherit the kingdom of God. For a time. They will all have to go through a purification process if they were not saved in this life. It probably won't be pleasant and it will be different for each individual, but there is nothing in the Bible that says those who did not know Christ will spend an eternity burning in hell or they will be annihilated. All will eventually be reconciled to God. Amen!!


1 Timothy 2:3-5
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:53 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Yes, these persons listed will not inherit the kingdom of God. For a time. They will all have to go through a purification process if they were not saved in this life.
I'm sorry, Ilene, but that is just too much eisegesis for me to swallow. When Paul said, "will not inherit," he made no indication, not even the slightest hint, that this was temporary.

Quote:
It probably won't be pleasant and it will be different for each individual, but there is nothing in the Bible that says those who did not know Christ will spend an eternity burning in hell or they will be annihilated. All will eventually be reconciled to God. Amen!!
Really? Please consider the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Jesus' teaching about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit proves that not all will be saved:

Matthew 12:31-32 (NASB): “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Mark 3:28-29 (NASB): “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Luke 12:10 (NASB): "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him."

In the passage in Mark, Jesus sharply contrasts pardonable sins with the unpardonable sin—blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The use of the Greek word “de,” meaning “but,” shows this contrast. Christ goes on to say that the one committing this sin is guilty of an “eternal sin.” The adjective aiwnios is used to modify the noun “sin.” The contrast would make no sense if aiwnios described the sin as merely “temporary,” for that would place it in the same category as forgivable sins mentioned just before. In that case, we would end up with this nonsensical translation:

“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit has forgiveness, but is guilty of a temporary sin.”

The Lord’s point here, which cannot be overlooked, is that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable. As such, it is an eternal sin.

A more literal translation would be, “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness to the age (aiwna) but is guilty of an eternal (aiwniou) sin.”

The passage from Luke brings out the same contrast: Forgivable sins are diametrically opposed to the sin that will not be forgiven: "...but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him."

Again, if this sin were to be forgiven at some point in the future, then the contrast in the passage would be completely overturned, and we would end up with this nonsensical translation:"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will be forgiven him."

If they were all in the same category, how could there be a contrast?

This text clearly affirms that not all will be saved. It is an unpleasant truth, but its unpleasantness does not make it any less true.
and this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
This is long, but since the attacks on the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment continue on this board, I feel the need to post it...

One of the clearest proofs of eternal punishment is found in the words of Jesus Himself about Judas Iscariot:

“The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Matthew 26:24, NASB)

To say that it would have been good for Judas if he had not been born is a very strong statement. As such, the “woe” that man faced must have been quite horrific. Thus, this statement logically militates against two popular ideas held by those who oppose the doctrine of eternal punishment: annihilation and future remedial punishment. Jesus’ words rule out the idea of annihilation because that is the very state of nonexistence that he says would have been good for Judas. His words prevent the idea of future remedial punishment because having never been born could not be regarded as better than a remedial chastening that would eventually lead to eternal blessedness. Since Judas Iscariot’s fate cannot be annihilation or remedial punishment, it must be eternal punishment.

One objection that has been raised is that when Jesus said, "good for him," the "him" was referring to his own person, so that we would have: "It would have been good for Jesus if that man had not been born." According to this view, Christ meant that if Judas had never been born, he (Christ) would not have had to endure the anguish in Gethsemane and the subsequent agonies of the crucifixion.

Let’s see how the pronoun “him” is used in the Greek:

ὁ μὲν υἱὸς τοῦἀνθρώπου ὑπάγει καθὼς γέγραπται περὶ αὐτοῦ οὐαὶ δὲ τῷἀνθρώπῳἐκείνῳ δι' οὗὁ υἱὸς τοῦἀνθρώπου παραδίδοται· καλὸν ἦν ατ εἰ οὐκ ἐγεννήθη ὁἄνθρωπος ἐκεῖνος

The boldfaced word in the Greek above is the pronoun "him." This third person masculine pronoun is in the dative singular case. Being in the dative case, it means “for him” or “to him.” Concerning that last part of the verse, this is a more literal translation, though the word order is awkward: "Good was for him if not was born that man."

Those who say that Christ was speaking about what was good for himself point to this pronoun, claiming that its antecedent could be Christ. The mere use of the pronoun, however, is not enough to prove that Christ meant this. We must not content ourselves with what the text could say but rather what it does say. In order to determine this, when the Greek text is not conclusive, we need to examine both the immediate and broad contexts. When we do, we will clearly see two things: 1) This interpretation goes against the logical flow of the passage (immediate context), and 2) this interpretation has Christ saying something about himself that is highly inconsistent with statements he made of himself in other places in the New Testament (broad context).

First, regarding the immediate context, the passage in the NASB in full reads as follows:

20Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
21As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."
22Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, "Surely not I, Lord?"
23And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
24"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
25And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."

The thrust of this passage is the betrayal that Christ was to face and its consequences for the betrayer. That is the point of the passage. What might have been good for Christ is not in consideration in this text. Therefore, to insist that it is, is to argue from silence. Moreover, to claim this is to say that Christ shifted gears in the middle of his talk, first speaking of the woe that would come to Judas, then abruptly changing the subject to speak of what was good for himself, and then abruptly switching back to speak of Judas. This goes against the logical flow of the text. The statement, “It would have been good for that man if he had not been born,” follows immediately upon the heels of the previous one, “woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!” The “woe” is described and expanded upon in the very next sentence. Therefore, the idea that Christ was referring to himself are attempting to force an interpretation on the text that does not belong there. Only someone who first wants the passage to say this would interpret it this way.

Secondly, looking at the broader context of the Bible, this interpretation cannot stand because it would not have mattered to Christ whether Judas was nonexistent or not, since he would have had to endure the cross no matter what. It was God's will that this should happen. Thus, even if Judas had never been born, God would have definitely used some other means to bring Christ to the anguish and suffering of the cross. The agonies that Christ faced were inevitable, and he knew it well. He knew that the very reason for his coming into the world was to give up his life for sinful people:

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28, NASB)

In light of this, he would not have said that Judas' nonexistence would have been good for his own sake. It would be like a condemned criminal on his way to the electric chair, saying, “It would be good for me if that electric chair did not exist.” This would be a ridiculous statement because even if the governing authorities didn’t have the electric chair, they would carry out his death sentence in some other way. The man is doomed to die, and so he will die no matter what. So it was with Christ: Even if Judas had never been born, God would have sovereignly created some other sure means whereby Christ should be betrayed.

The only sensible interpretation is that Judas' nonexistence would have been good for Judas, and that because of the woe that Christ referred to earlier in the same sentence.

Speaking of this “woe,” some have suggested that it referred merely to Judas’ inner anguish over the judgment he would face, or perhaps some other subjective anguish because of his betrayal of the Lord. But no matter how intense such inner suffering might be, it could never make nonexistence good for him if he would one day be saved after all. Even if he had to face the most horrible subjective anguish or future judgment before reaching salvation, he would still end up one day in eternal blessedness. Having never been born, however, would mean that he would miss out on this everlasting blessedness, eternal glory, eternal fellowship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and all the other myriad, indescribable joys of being in heaven forever. Therefore, in this view nonexistence could not have been good for him.

In addition, the grammar of the passage demands that the woe be interpreted as objective. The phrase, “but woe to that man” is “οὐαὶ δὲ τνθρώπ ἐκείνῳ.” The phrase, “the man,” which is boldfaced above, is in the singular dative, indicating not what is inside the man but rather what will be to that man. It is a woe that will happen to him, not in him.


Quote:
1 Timothy 2:3-5
Quote:
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
And is God's will always carried out? God does not want people to break his law, yet we see that happening all the time. Just because God wills something does not guarantee that he will bring it to pass. That is why this 1 Tim. passage does not prove universalism.
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:05 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,210,108 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Yes, these persons listed will not inherit the kingdom of God. For a time. They will all have to go through a purification process if they were not saved in this life. It probably won't be pleasant and it will be different for each individual, but there is nothing in the Bible that says those who did not know Christ will spend an eternity burning in hell or they will be annihilated. All will eventually be reconciled to God. Amen!!


1 Timothy 2:3-5
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The thing is we all experience some of these things in our lives from time to time. Jealousy, wrath, outbursts of anger, envy, strife, factions ...

So long as we are in the flesh ... However, we should not let them rule our lives. One day we will be free of this body of death ...
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:09 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,210,108 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I'm sorry, Ilene, but that is just too much eisegesis for me to swallow. When Paul said, "will not inherit," he made no indication, not even the slightest hint, that this was temporary.

Really? Please consider the following:



and this:





And is God's will always carried out? God does not want people to break his law, yet we see that happening all the time. Just because God wills something does not guarantee that he will bring it to pass. That is why this 1 Tim. passage does not prove universalism.
Paul was a murderer, will he inherit the kingdom? The old man must first die before the new man can inherit the kingdom of God, and we must die daily.

The penitent thief also will be in the kingdom, and he was a thief his entire life until just before he died. Paul is warning us to eschew these things now as we are to represent the kingdom on earth.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:06 PM
 
964 posts, read 718,303 times
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HotinAz, I went back and read some of your posts..your all over the place.
You throw in crap like Maitreya returning, yeah, all UR people are going to worship him.

Your not even listening to some very valid points, your mind is made up and heart is hardened.

To think God would create man in His image and a realm for him to live in but the vast majority end up annihilated or suffering forever is wrong. It's the devil's trump card as far as I'm concerned.

Someday you will stand before Him and He might ask you why you believed the way you did. You probably won't have an answer though.
But He is merciful and will understand and forgive you as well.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:36 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,295 posts, read 20,036,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
HotinAz, I went back and read some of your posts..your all over the place.
You throw in crap like Maitreya returning, yeah, all UR people are going to worship him.

Your not even listening to some very valid points, your mind is made up and heart is hardened.

To think God would create man in His image and a realm for him to live in but the vast majority end up annihilated or suffering forever is wrong. It's the devil's trump card as far as I'm concerned.

Someday you will stand before Him and He might ask you why you believed the way you did. You probably won't have an answer though.
But He is merciful and will understand and forgive you as well.
The same spirit that that demanded Jesus to be crucified is the same spirit that demands sinners to eternally burn


23But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. Luke 23 .

It says their shouts prevailed , oh really , more like God's will prevailed.

God's will always prevails and it will also prevail regarding the salvation of all . Amen
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:54 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,378,627 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
HotinAz, I went back and read some of your posts..your all over the place.
You throw in crap like Maitreya returning, yeah, all UR people are going to worship him.

Your not even listening to some very valid points, your mind is made up and heart is hardened.

To think God would create man in His image and a realm for him to live in but the vast majority end up annihilated or suffering forever is wrong. It's the devil's trump card as far as I'm concerned.

Someday you will stand before Him and He might ask you why you believed the way you did. You probably won't have an answer though.
But He is merciful and will understand and forgive you as well.

Ahh shucks.

The crap I threw in is exactly what is in line with what you all believe.

As far as standing in front of Him on that day? I am in rest knowing He has me right where I am at this very moment, and every moment since He has come INTO my heart.

No worries here.

As far as the devil's trump card comment? Actually that is verging on blasphemy, UNLESS what you say is truth, which it is clearly NOT.

Annihilation is exactly how the Word reads, from front to back. "It would have been BETTER to NOT have been born", which means what is worse than that? Having been born, and the DIE. Not the physical mind you,,the spiritual death. Because you WILL HAVE KNOWN and BE KNOWN.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:55 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,378,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The same spirit that that demanded Jesus to be crucified is the same spirit that demands sinners to eternally burn


23But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. Luke 23 .

It says their shouts prevailed , oh really , more like God's will prevailed.

God's will always prevails and it will also prevail regarding the salvation of all . Amen
So saith the gospel accroding to pcamps, not Jesus the risen Christ.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:56 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,763,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The thing is we all experience some of these things in our lives from time to time. Jealousy, wrath, outbursts of anger, envy, strife, factions ...

So long as we are in the flesh ... However, we should not let them rule our lives. One day we will be free of this body of death ...
Yes we all do experience these things and it's just part of life. I'm really looking forward to the day, like you said, that we will be free of this body of death!! Hallelujah!
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