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Old 06-15-2010, 07:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
There is only your assumption concerning the ending of punishment. Nowhere is it mentioned in the Bible. Some are thrown in the lake of fire in Rev. 20. There is no mention of them getting released.
Of course there is mention of all getting out of the lake of fire - - the second death in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.

The only death remaining in 1 Cor.15:26 is the second death. That death will be abolished, all held by it will come forth, be subjected to Christ, Christ then subjects Himself to God and then God is All in all.



Quote:
Question for you in parallel with 1 Tim. 2:4 since you mentioned it - Did God desire that Israel keep His commandments upon entering the promised land? Y or N?
It was God's hidden intention (which they didn't know) that they would fail at keeping His commandments:
Romans 5:20 and Gal.3:24,25 and
Romans 8:5-8 CLV For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit." (6) For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, (7) because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,198 posts, read 14,086,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
yes God desires all people to keep his commandments. And eventually he will achieve that very thing when all is said and done. Though God allows for evil to exist and even hardens hearts and blinds the eyes of his very own elect in order that he might have mercy on all(Romans 11).
You did not answer my question specifically. I asked about Israel and the promised land from the OT. Some of you are so demanding when your question is asked - yet the same courtesy is not extended both ways.

God desired the people of Israel to believe they could possess the promised land while they were in the wilderness - it didn't happen except in Caleb and Joshua. God desired Israel to follow His commandments once the new generation moved in to the land. For a while they did, but as time progressed the people moved away from God.

God's desire is reflected in the fact that he prophesied to Abraham about the promised land, He delivered them from Egyptian bondage, He destroyed those in the desert who did not believe, He removed the current occupants - God did all of the work so that enter could basically come in to the land.

There is a different between God's desire and God's sovereign will - which is my point.

The bold in your statement is that God allows evil. Are you saying that He desires evil - since He gets what He desires?
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:12 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You did not answer my question specifically. I asked about Israel and the promised land from the OT. Some of you are so demanding when your question is asked - yet the same courtesy is not extended both ways.

God desired the people of Israel to believe they could possess the promised land while they were in the wilderness - it didn't happen except in Caleb and Joshua. God desired Israel to follow His commandments once the new generation moved in to the land. For a while they did, but as time progressed the people moved away from God.

God's desire is reflected in the fact that he prophesied to Abraham about the promised land, He delivered them from Egyptian bondage, He destroyed those in the desert who did not believe, He removed the current occupants - God did all of the work so that enter could basically come in to the land.

There is a different between God's desire and God's sovereign will - which is my point.

The bold in your statement is that God allows evil. Are you saying that He desires evil - since He gets what He desires?

I believe that evil is and always was a part of Gods plan. I don't believe evil was an accident like most do. I believe God is in control, and the devil can only do what God allows him to do(read Job). I believe that the creation was subject by God to the vanity of sin and death not of its own will, but in hope(Rom 8:20). Evil existed before Adam and eve, hence the tree of knowledge ... God created it, so he must have a purpose for it. One cannot truly know Good unless one first knows evil. However once God has achieved his purpose for evil, he will do away with it.


I did answer you question specifically, i said yes. I didn't understand the question exactly, but the point was the same nonetheless ...



Selah ...
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:19 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
but you saw a contradiction in the old KJV? yes or no?

Ephesians 3:21 (New King James Version)
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

the NKJV is also mistranslated

αυτω η δοξα εν τη εκκλησια εν χριστω ιησου εις πασας τας γενεας του αιωνος των αιωνων αμην

a correct translation would be

to Him be the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen. (Green's literal)

"tou aionos" means "of the age" not forever, "ton aionon" is plural and means "of the ages", it does not mean "forever and ever"

Wycliffe got it right also

to hym be glorie in the chirche, and in Crist Jhesu, in to alle the generaciouns of the world of worldis. Amen.

where the modern translations fail

the mistranslated phrase bears also relevance to the subject of universalism, but does it change any other biblical doctrine?, universalists do not claim that all the bible is untrustworthy but that several keywords have been mistranslated, in many instances biased and willingly as I will document later

I prove in my next post further that everlasting/eternal and forever do not mean endless in English bibles
Right ... I posted this in another thread but thought i should post it here as well showing how most modern translations are in fact dubious on many points.

"The phrase "aionos ton aionion" is mistranslated as "for ever and ever". But both "aionas" and "aionon" are plural forms of the word "aion" ... It means "ages of ages". If it really meant "for ever and ever" it would have to be translated "for evers and evers". How many evers are there Exactly?

And the words "aionas" and "aionon" are plural nouns, yet they are translated with an adverb("ever"). And "ton" means "of", not "and" ... Translating "aionas ton aionon" with "for ever and ever" is in every sense an incorrect and improper translation of the original Greek."



Namaste ...
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
And the words "aionas" and "aionon" are plural nouns, yet they are translated with an adverb("ever"). And "ton" means "of", not "and" ... Translating "aionas ton aionon" with "for ever and ever" is in every sense an incorrect and improper translation of the original Greek."
absolutely right, however in this case it was "age of ages", one might argue what ages of ages mean, but to me it is pretty clear that "age of ages" denotes a particular age in a series of ages, there is not the slightest reason to render this with the NONSENSICAL idiom "forever and ever"

I will show now from the KJV that eternal/everlasting and forever to not mean "endless" in English bibles:

Eternal is not endless in English bibles:

Isaiah 60:15, KJV

Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee , I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

"eternal" is equated here with "many generations", this is quite plain
God is also called "eternal" in the KJV, Deuteronomy 33:27:

The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

"eternal" is equated with merely some generations and yet ascribed to God which shows that there is no idea of the philosophical concept of eternity, which we have now, in the bible

In Jude 7 we read:

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In Sodom and Gomorrha there is burning no more fire, if the peope of Sodom would burn in hell right now, Jesus' words were meaningless:

Markus 6:11

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

these words were absurd and meaningless if the people of Sodom and Gomorrha would be burning in hell right now and would burn evermore

therefore "eternal" in Jude 7 cannot mean what eternal tormentists claim it to mean, a further witness is Ezekiel 16:53:

When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them

Sodom and Gomorrha will be restored according to the Prophet

Everlasting is not endless in English bibles:

Numbers 25:13

And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

Hebrews 7:14-17

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless [akatalytos] life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

this everlasting priesthood wasn't endless, "endless life" in Hebrews is akatalytos, not aionios

Forever is not endless in English bibles:


Jonah was forever in the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:7):

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah was in hell there according to the KJV and yet was delivered (Jonah 2:2;10):

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. [...]
And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.


Jonah was forever in hell for 3 days and nights:

Matthew 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

this was not endless

to be continued...
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Old 06-15-2010, 04:29 PM
 
365 posts, read 424,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
If you don't trust the Bible, you don't trust God.
I totally disagree!!! The reason is because we do not have the original manuscripts anymore, they are eternally gone!

All we have is copies and translations, and all copies and translations have some errors, typo's, etc.

By faith I trust God and by faith I trust that the original manuscripts were perfect. HOWEVER, I do not fully trust any copies or any translations.

That is why I read a lot of different translations to do my best to get to the most accurate understanding.

Remember.. every single translation has been proven to have some sort of errors in them. Every single one, KJV, NIV etc etc.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:21 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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PurpleHeart,
If you look at the three oldest Uncial Manuscripts the differences are slight and even where there are some problems the scribe made a marginal note to correct it.

There are of course problems of bringing one language over into another. For instance, English doesn't have much of a middle voice so it is difficult to bring the middle voice of the Greek over into English. The Concordant Literal solves this by putting a symbol of a circle with a dot in the middle of it in front of what should be the middle voice.
German has the middle voice so the Greek middle translates easily into the German middle.

But this in no way messes up the inspiration of the Sacred Scriptures by having these translation issues. What messes up the inspiration is, instead of translating some translators give their interpretation which may be quite different from the original.

For instance, when it comes to interpretation rather than translation, I think it is the NIV that says: "eternally condemned" for "anathema" in Galatians 1:8. That's bad. Real bad. That is not what anathema means. I know they call it "dynamic equivalency" but that is far from being equivalent.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
PurpleHeart,
If you look at the three oldest Uncial Manuscripts the differences are slight and even where there are some problems the scribe made a marginal note to correct it.

There are of course problems of bringing one language over into another. For instance, English doesn't have much of a middle voice so it is difficult to bring the middle voice of the Greek over into English. The Concordant Literal solves this by putting a symbol of a circle with a dot in the middle of it in front of what should be the middle voice.
German has the middle voice so the Greek middle translates easily into the German middle.

But this in no way messes up the inspiration of the Sacred Scriptures by having these translation issues. What messes up the inspiration is, instead of translating some translators give their interpretation which may be quite different from the original.

For instance, when it comes to interpretation rather than translation, I think it is the NIV that says: "eternally condemned" for "anathema" in Galatians 1:8. That's bad. Real bad. That is not what anathema means. I know they call it "dynamic equivalency" but that is far from being equivalent.
Interesting. I know I can look at all the verses on BibleGateway and such, but do you have a link written on this subject for us simple folk that I can look at? I'm gathering all the material I can, but I don't have any books on this stuff at home yet, so all my research is done on the web.
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:49 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,416 posts, read 29,533,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHeart View Post
I totally disagree!!! The reason is because we do not have the original manuscripts anymore, they are eternally gone!

All we have is copies and translations, and all copies and translations have some errors, typo's, etc.

By faith I trust God and by faith I trust that the original manuscripts were perfect. HOWEVER, I do not fully trust any copies or any translations.

That is why I read a lot of different translations to do my best to get to the most accurate understanding.

Remember.. every single translation has been proven to have some sort of errors in them. Every single one, KJV, NIV etc etc.
No the Bible is the inspired, infallible inerrant Word of God, which God is capable of keeping tainted by human error before reaching us. He is certainly powerful enough to keep it error free.
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
No the Bible is the inspired, infallible inerrant Word of God, which God is capable of keeping tainted by human error before reaching us. He is certainly powerful enough to keep it error free.
Christ is the WORD, and God is powerful enough to do a lot of GOOD things, but God allows MEN to do a lot of STUPID things.
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