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Old 06-20-2010, 08:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Quote:
Is God the first cause of everything?


No, not after the fashion you believe.
Without even getting into evil, your answer here makes no sense to me pneuma. Nothing exists without God. God created the universe, and everything in it. Satan can do nothing without God. If God had not created the universe and the angels, Satan would not have existed right? Thus God MUST BE the first cause. It can be no other way. To say otherwise is to say there is some other entity than God that created some things.

I don't really understand your view here.

Quote:
God did NOT create Satan. Satan created himself.Satan simply means adversary and because this angelic being waged war in the heavens, he became the adversary/Satan.
I don't know how you can say this either. Satan created himself?!? How can that be?

Do you know that God is all-knowing and all-powerful? Because if God is all-knowing and all-powerful, then He knew that Satan would come into existence because of His creative act, therefore God is the first cause. It can be no other way. Your statement is unreasonable and illogical. That is, unless you think God is not all-knowing or all-powerful.

It seems in going out of your way to avoid attributing evil/Satan's existence to God, you are also making God to be NOT GOD. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-responsible. That is what being God means.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:41 PM
 
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I'm not going to go through everything here, but your view of what I think is confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Evil is evil no matter how you want to slice it.
Agreed.

Quote:

Lego what you are saying is that if Satan rapes a child it is because his intentions were evil.

But if God rapes a child, it is not evil because His intentions are good.

Is that not a perfect example of calling evil good?

Do you honestly believe that?

Does not your inner man just cringe at such a thought?

Do you think the child cares who rapes them?

Would not that child hate who it was that raped them? Whether it be God or Satan.
Pneuma, I never said any of the above. I don't think Satan rapes a little child. And I certainly don't think God rapes little children. How could you think that is what I was saying?

Pneuma, EVIL MEN RAPE LITTLE CHILDREN. That is one of the worst evils that can occur in this life. And evil men do this because that is what they want to do. They desire and lust after this evil.

Yet the following facts remain:
1. Men cannot do good unless God changes them from their evil ways.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
Psalm 14:3 there is no one who does good, not even one.

2. When an evil man rapes a child, God did nothing to stop it. That's not saying that God doesn't stop many other evil acts, but by the examples in this world, we know many evil acts happen that God did not stop.

3. Scripture gives us examples where men cause evil but God means it for good. That is, God intended it for good. See the story of Joseph and His brothers.
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Now this is not talking about God making lemonade out of our lemons. NO. God first makes the lemons, and then uses them to make the lemonade. God uses evil to create even greater good.

Quote:
That people are raped is not Gods doing or even something He allows
How can you suggest that God is not allowing it? The only way you can truthfully say that is if God doesn't know about it. If God knows about something, and doesn't want it to happen, then by definition He is allowing it! That is what "allow" means.

Now if you really think that God does not allow these evils, then you must conceed that God does not know about these evils. If that is the case, you are not speaking about God anymore, because God is all-knowing. You are speaking about some other god that is not all-knowing. Is that what you believe? Otherwise your view does not make sense. Either God causes it, God allows it, or He doesn't even know about it. There are no other choices. I'm not willing to go down the path that God is not all-knowing.


Quote:
There is a vast difference between God correcting people of their errors so that they do not enter into death, and God planning and arranging all the evils in this world. God planning and arranging all the evils in the world has nothing to do with correction.

Example: a child before they learn to do good or evil is raped.

Now tell me, what evil did this child do that God needed to correct it through rape?

What did this child do that is in need of correction of any kind?
Ok these are ridiculous questions pneuma. I am actually slightly offended you would think that I was suggesting this. You really think I was saying that God needs to correct a child through rape?!??!? Where did I even suggest that?!? That is not even close to what I am talking about.

Look, these are emotional topics and discussions, which why I said back on the first page that this is a difficult topic to cover.

But the facts remain:
1. God created the universe
2. God knew children would be raped in this universe
3. God still went ahead with the plan

Now, why would God allow a child to be raped? Certainly not to "correct" the child as you suggest above. Sorry pneuma, that is ridiculous. Yet the rape happens. No doubt it is a terrible evil. But does some good come of it? Perhaps. I don't know how exactly. I don't have the vision of God. But I do have faith that God can bring about greater good from any situation in this world.

Certainly people learn compassion, patience, endurance, and forgiveness because of terrible evils that happen. Certainly God wants to teach us compassion, patience, endurance, and forgiveness. God actually has a plan to teach us these things, because these are attributes He wants His sons to have.

Quote:
I would submit that rape of any kind is evil and that rape never even entered into the mind of God.

You have read in scripture how Israel of old was sending their children into the fires as a sacrifice to Molech and how God said that He never commanded such a thing, that such a thing NEVER even entered into His mind.

Now apply that to what you people are saying about Gods character.

I would submit Lego that what you people have been presenting about Gods character has NEVER even entered into His mind.
The phrase "never entered into His mind" is really speaking about the HEART. In the KJV:

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

YLT uses similar wording.

God most certainly knew that the pagans would sacrifice their children in fire. God most certainly knew that this would happen before He even created the universe. It was not in His heart that this should happen, but it certainly was in his mind. Yet He still created the universe in such a way that this would still happen.

What does it mean to be "not in His heart"? It means that is not God's ultimate goal or purpose. Just as us sinning is not in His heart. His heart is that we be righteous and sinless. Yet He still created the universe knowing we would sin. In fact He has even predetermined that people sin. Judas was predestined to be the one who would betray Christ. Judas was predestined to sin.

God is all-knowing. God is also all-powerful. Therefore He allows evil to occur. And the only reason He allows it, is because He intended evil to be here, temporarily. We know this because He is all-powerful. Since God knows all the evils that occur, and He is powerful enough to stop these evils, yet the evils are not stopped, the only conclusion we can draw is that these evils are here for God's purpose.


Pneuma, do you really believe that God is all-knowing and all-powerful? Because from your comments it seems perhaps you do not. And the reason you do not is because of the problem of evil. You would rather ever-so-slightly diminish God's all-powerful/all-knowing nature than possibly think that God could have anything to do with the evil in this world.

I really intend no disrespect here, I hope I have not offended you. But if we are to discover the hard truths, we must be objective and reasonable when looking at these things.

I would recommend reading Ray Smith's articles on Free Will, he covers these topics in much more depth than can be done in a forum format.
Myth of Free Will Part A
Myth of Free Will Part B
Myth of Free Will Part C
Myth of Free Will Part D

Be well pneuma, and again please don't take offense, or think that I am advocating evil, or calling evil good. We are all trying to understand the truth of our existence here.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 882,504 times
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It is VERY difficult to think that God would have some greater good in mind through the rape of any innocent victim. Who is deserving of rape? Yet when children endure evil, it seems infinitely worse. BUT, if only people deserving of evil experience evil, what does it benefit us in learning compassion? True, to our mind it is a VERY HIGH price to pay to learn anything, but it is so. As Lego said, If God didn't plan it He at least allowed it and howtTHEN u think He has to go around doing cleanup in everyone's lives that are affected by this evil, inlcuding the perpretator?

No, We are sinful creatures. We do not have to be MADE to do evil, we do it naturally. The miracle is that the world is not worse than it actually is. But it is my absolute belief that, though it is difficult to understand, if not impossibe. that God has a purpose and plan for such awful evil, that every victim will be more than recompensed for what he/she suffered and will have no complaints.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:05 PM
 
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Now certainly a man raping a little child is extremely evil. But there are more evil things than that.

Let us look at one of the more evil men in history: Hitler.

Hitler was the leader of the ruling government in Germany, and was responsible for torturing and putting millions to death.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Prov 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?

Jer10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

Prov 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Now Hitler planned his course, but the Lord determined his steps. His steps were directed by the Lord. In fact the Lord could direct Hitlers heart however He pleased. If the Lord had directed Hitler's heart differently, Hitler would have planned a different course.

So who is in control here? It is obvious and is no surprise.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


So God is working all in all and working out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will. He has declared it all. This includes everything that Hitler did.

Let us not mince words here. We are not merely talking about God "allowing" evil. God did not merely "allow" Hitler to exist and do evil. He could direct his heart however He pleases!

Its up to you whether you believe these scriptures or not.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:11 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,432,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
It is VERY difficult to think that God would have some greater good in mind through the rape of any innocent victim. Who is deserving of rape? Yet when children endure evil, it seems infinitely worse. BUT, if only people deserving of evil experience evil, what does it benefit us in learning compassion? True, to our mind it is a VERY HIGH price to pay to learn anything, but it is so. As Lego said, If God didn't plan it He at least allowed it and howtTHEN u think He has to go around doing cleanup in everyone's lives that are affected by this evil, inlcuding the perpretator?

No, We are sinful creatures. We do not have to be MADE to do evil, we do it naturally. The miracle is that the world is not worse than it actually is. But it is my absolute belief that, though it is difficult to understand, if not impossibe. that God has a purpose and plan for such awful evil, that every victim will be more than recompensed for what he/she suffered and will have no complaints.
Thankyou for your comments ScarletWren, we are on the same page. You make a good point about compassion. It relates to the topic of suffering and why it is necessary to learn virtues like compassion, endurance, forgiveness, etc. These virtues simply cannot exist if there is no suffering and evil.

Like I said back at the top of this thread, this is a difficult topic to be sure. But if you want to know the truth, we must be objective and study the scriptures and nature of God, and how it fits with the evidence of the evils in our world.

It should humble us all. We are not in control. God is. May God have mercy on us all. He has said He will.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

What! Were sinners and full of evil; and that’s Gods grace? You definitely have a different view of God’s grace then I do then brother/sister.
No that is not what I'm meaning. I find these forums frustrating as it is so difficult to get meaning across sometimes. It would be so much easier if we were in a coffee shop having a nice chat...

Anyway, Paul said:

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

Do you understand what Paul was saying? Paul was only who He was because of God's grace! We can take this even further. The blessings I have in this life - good health, a comfortable house in North America, a wonderful family - I only have these things because of the grace of God.

Why am I not blind with one leg right now? Only one answer: the grace of God. Some people are born blind. Others are born without limbs. Why was that them instead of me? Only one answer: the grace of God.

Why was I born in Canada instead of in the starving third world? Only one answer: the grace of God.

Why am I not an atheist and instead believe in our wonderful creator: the grace of God.


Do you get what I'm saying? The only reason I have certain blessings, and other people don't, is because the grace of God has directed my life in this way. Its beyond my control. Sure I have done things, made choices that affected my life positively, but the only reason I was able to do those things is because of the grace of God.


Back to Hitler for a sec. If the grace of God had blessed Hitler in certain ways, do you think God could have influenced Hitler to NOT want to destroy the jewish populace? [YES of course God could have blessed Hitler differently] Then why didn't God do just that?
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:56 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Thankyou for your comments ScarletWren, we are on the same page. You make a good point about compassion. It relates to the topic of suffering and why it is necessary to learn virtues like compassion, endurance, forgiveness, etc. These virtues simply cannot exist if there is no suffering and evil.

Like I said back at the top of this thread, this is a difficult topic to be sure. But if you want to know the truth, we must be objective and study the scriptures and nature of God, and how it fits with the evidence of the evils in our world.

It should humble us all. We are not in control. God is. May God have mercy on us all. He has said He will.
Amen.....suffering and evil must exist to teach us certain virtues. And we must realize that "we" are NOT in control, it is God that controls everything. And yes, He will have mercy:

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:06 AM
 
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Amen. Romans 5 is such an amazing chapter.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

There it is plain as day. The reason for suffering (and thus the reason for evil existing): Suffering produces perseverance, character, and hope.
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You make a good point about compassion. It relates to the topic of suffering and why it is necessary to learn virtues like compassion, endurance, forgiveness, etc. These virtues simply cannot exist if there is no suffering and evil.
And the six million Jews learned their lesson? No, of course not. They died.

Was God controlling Hitler? No, of course not. That would mean God killed the Jews. God's permits people to have free will, but that does not mean he approves what they do. God did not approve Adam eating the fruit either. He punished the entire mankind for that sin. But he grieved about what happened:

The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Why would he grieve if he masterminded the whole thing?

Jews rejected God and God pulled out of their lives, and evil filled the void. When you rebel against God, he will allow bad things to happen, but that does not mean he masterminded the holocost. Hitler was under influence of Satan, due to absence of God.

After the holocoust God had mercy on the survivors and gave them their land back.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 06-21-2010 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And the six million Jews learned their lesson? No, of course not. They died.

Was God controlling Hitler? No, of course not. That would mean God killed the Jews. God's permits people to have free will, but that does not mean he approves what they do. God did not approve Adam eating the fruit either. The punished the entire mankind for that sin. But he grieved about what happened:

The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Why would he grieve if he masterminded the whole thing?

Jews rejected God and God pulled out of their lives, and evil filled the void. When you rebel against God, he will allow bad things to happen, but that does not mean he masterminded the holocost. Hitler was under influence of Satan, due to absence of God.

After the holocoust God had mercy on the survivors and gave them their land back.
No one is saying that God masterminded the holocaust....we're saying He created sin and evil, they exist because He created them and He allows the fallout of that sin and evil. Yes, God was grieved because He always hopes we will make the right choices and choose Him over sin and evil.

That in no way negates the fact that sin and evil exists because God created them. He could have put a halt to mankind the minute Adam and Eve sinned, but He didn't. For some reason, in God's plan, this all needs to play out until the end and it is up to us to listen to God and His word and avoid sin and evil. The comments on evil and sin being necessary to learn virtues of compassion and the like are dead on....we can understand to a certain degree why God created sin and evil because it is integral to His bigger plan for mankind.

God will have mercy on EVERYONE in the end, and we will all understand everything. The pain and suffering will cease, and so will sin and evil.
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