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Old 06-21-2010, 09:18 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,899,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And the six million Jews learned their lesson? No, of course not. They died.
The six million jews "learned their lesson"? That is not what I was saying at all.

But perhaps mankind as a whole learned something.

Quote:
Was God controlling Hitler? No, of course not. That would mean God killed the Jews. God's permits people to have free will, but that does not mean he approves what they do. God did not approve Adam eating the fruit either. The punished the entire mankind for that sin. But he grieved about what happened:

The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Why would he grieve if he masterminded the whole thing?

Jews rejected God and God pulled out of their lives, and evil filled the void. When you rebel against God, he will allow bad things to happen, but that does not mean he masterminded the holocost. Hitler was under influence of Satan, due to absence of God.

After the holocoust God had mercy on the survivors and gave them their land back.
I am certain many things grieve the Lord on this earth, but that does not mean He did not intend or ordain for these things to happen. It simply means that things have to be this way in order for us to learn what love and goodness is. Things have to be this way in order to learn virtues like compassion, endurance, character, etc. Just like when I discipline my child. Sometimes it grieves me - but it has to be this way so my child will learn and because I love her.

Now maybe you didn't read the scriptures I posted above Finn. Let me review them here, and then you can tell me what they mean in regards to Hitler.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Prov 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?

Jer10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

Prov 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


So of course Hitler is a man: a man who planned his course in his heart, yet it was the Lord who determined his steps. In fact Hitler's life was not his own, it was God directing his steps. God directed Hitler's heart like a watercourse wherever God pleased it to go. If God had directed Hitler's heart differently, then Hitler would have planned a different course. Hitler had great power in Germany, yet we know He only had that power because God ordained it. Can you deny this? If you do, you are denying the scriptures.

Lets go back farther here. Hitler is not mentioned in the bible, but Pharaoh is. God raised up Pharaoh as a vessel of dishonor. God directed the steps of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh would punish God's own people. Pharaoh commited much evil, but God was directing it for His good purposes.

But lets go even farther back - to the first man. Adam's life was not his own - his steps also were directed and determined by God. Adam made the plan to disobey God in his heart, yet of course it was still God who was directing those steps. It was still God who could bend Adam's will like He bends a watercourse. So why did Adam eat the forbidden fruit? Adam made a plan in his heart yet God directed it all.

And of course this includes YOU and ME. God is directing all our steps.

So we see that God is working EVERYTHING in accordance with the purpose of His own will. This includes evil, Satan, Hitler, Pharaoh, Adam, you, and me. God is in full control. This is what the scripture says. The question is: do you believe these scriptures?
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
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So the will of God wrestled with - and lost to - the will of man?

That thought pales in comparison to:

All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. (Dan 4:35)

And other sovereignty scriptures:

Sovereignty Scriptures

We can't have it both ways; God has shown us through His creation of man that He indeed has "emotions", but that in no way overthrows His sovereign rule. How can we judge the Holocaust - as another Egypt? 400 years came and went before the bondage was overturned, yet several hundred years later came the true explanation through the Cross.

We are simply unable to fully know His ways - and it's a complete waste of our time here on earth to argue such things - His heart and His will is that we simply abide in Him and be instruments of His glory.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,300 posts, read 12,579,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
No ....we're saying He created sin and evil, they exist because He created them and He allows the fallout of that sin and evil.
So, he created evil to tempt man, and then he grieves when man falls for it. That is an interesting view. I disagree with it since Bible is rather clear about the fact that God did not create evil. Evil is the plant which God did nor plant. "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

Quote:
Yes, God was grieved because He always hopes we will make the right choices and choose Him over sin and evil.
Right choises?? I thought URs do not believe in man having any free will to make choises.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:27 AM
 
Location: southern california
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no -sin sickeness and death are the false claims of existance, god is life truth and love--
in the end-- sin sickenss and death will be destroyed.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:34 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,263,347 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So, he created evil to tempt man, and then he grieves when man falls for it. That is an interesting view. I disagree with it since Bible is rather clear about the fact that God did not create evil. Evil is the plant which God did nor plant. "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
Well if God did not "plant" sin and evil then why has it not been "uprooted"? It's not an "interesting" view, it is the view that the Bible teaches us. And the Bible is very clear that God DID create evil. I don't understand why this simple teaching cannot be grasped.

Quote:
Right choises?? I thought URs do not believe in man having any free will to make choises.
I don't believe in free will, I believe God directs our steps according to the scriptures that Legoman quoted in the above post. But we can still make choices (with a c, not an s) that are in line with what God would have us do.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The six million jews "learned their lesson"? That is not what I was saying at all.

But perhaps mankind as a whole learned something.
Yes, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot etc learned how to kill millions of people effortlessly.

The verse below does not apply to every king unless you are saying God raised Hitler and Stalin to play them against each other and kill 30 million people in the process.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

The verse was written by King Solomon, and when he says "king", he was referring to himself. His heart was controlled by God, because he was a man of God.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 2,746,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The six million jews "learned their lesson"? That is not what I was saying at all.

But perhaps mankind as a whole learned something.

I am certain many things grieve the Lord on this earth, but that does not mean He did not intend or ordain for these things to happen. It simply means that things have to be this way in order for us to learn what love and goodness is. Things have to be this way in order to learn virtues like compassion, endurance, character, etc. Just like when I discipline my child. Sometimes it grieves me - but it has to be this way so my child will learn and because I love her.

Now maybe you didn't read the scriptures I posted above Finn. Let me review them here, and then you can tell me what they mean in regards to Hitler.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Prov 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?

Jer10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

Prov 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


So of course Hitler is a man: a man who planned his course in his heart, yet it was the Lord who determined his steps. In fact Hitler's life was not his own, it was God directing his steps. God directed Hitler's heart like a watercourse wherever God pleased it to go. If God had directed Hitler's heart differently, then Hitler would have planned a different course. Hitler had great power in Germany, yet we know He only had that power because God ordained it. Can you deny this? If you do, you are denying the scriptures.

Lets go back farther here. Hitler is not mentioned in the bible, but Pharaoh is. God raised up Pharaoh as a vessel of dishonor. God directed the steps of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh would punish God's own people. Pharaoh commited much evil, but God was directing it for His good purposes.

But lets go even farther back - to the first man. Adam's life was not his own - his steps also were directed and determined by God. Adam made the plan to disobey God in his heart, yet of course it was still God who was directing those steps. It was still God who could bend Adam's will like He bends a watercourse. So why did Adam eat the forbidden fruit? Adam made a plan in his heart yet God directed it all.

And of course this includes YOU and ME. God is directing all our steps.

So we see that God is working EVERYTHING in accordance with the purpose of His own will. This includes evil, Satan, Hitler, Pharaoh, Adam, you, and me. God is in full control. This is what the scripture says. The question is: do you believe these scriptures?
Amen!

What's more, the Zionists COLLABORATED with Hitler. This is not my declaration, but that of ORTHODOX JEWS. "It would be wishful thinking if it could be stated that the leaders of the Zionist movement sat back and ignored the plight of their dying brothers and sisters. Not only did they publicly refuse to assist in their rescue, but they actively participated with Hitler and the Nazi regime."

Take a look: The Role of Zionism in the Holocaust

God will get the glory! He is worthy of praise!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 06-21-2010, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,300 posts, read 12,579,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Well if God did not "plant" sin and evil then why has it not been "uprooted"? It's not an "interesting" view, it is the view that the Bible teaches us. And the Bible is very clear that God DID create evil. I don't understand why this simple teaching cannot be grasped.
The Isaiah verse has already been explained to you, so you'll have to come up with something else. To say "bible teaches it" without quoting the scripture just won't cut it.

Yes, there are plants which God did not plant, and it is written that they will be uprooted, and people who willingly keep eating the fruit of the evil tree will be thrown in the lake of fire. Why has it not been done yet? It is written it will be done, when it is time to do it, not before.
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Old 06-21-2010, 10:16 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,899,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot etc learned how to kill millions of people effortlessly.

The verse below does not apply to every king unless you are saying God raised Hitler and Stalin to play them against each other and kill 30 million people in the process.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

The verse was written by King Solomon, and when he says "king", he was referring to himself. His heart was controlled by God, because he was a man of God.

Ok WOW. That's a "different" interpretation - to say the least. Keep on believe that if you want to.

I suppose you will next say King Solomon was a "man", so he was only referring to himself in regards to God determining a "man's steps" (Prov 20:24).

Likewise, what about Jeremiah 10:23? I suppose it is only Jeremiah's life that is not his own, it is only Jeremiah's steps that God is directing (along with King Solomon's).

Again I repeat, Paul tells us in Romans 13 that God ordains all powers that be. Does that apply to Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and every other leader that has ever existed? YES IT DOES. God is working EVERYTHING according to His purpose.

Quote:
I disagree with it since Bible is rather clear about the fact that God did not create evil. Evil is the plant which God did nor plant.
Ok WOW again. You say "the bible is clear about the fact that God did not create evil"... EXCEPT FOR ALL THE VERSES THAT SPECIFICALLY SAY HE CREATED AND USED EVIL!!!!

Isaiah 45:7 I make peace, and create evil

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Amos 3:6 shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

1 Kings 22:23 So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Genesis 2:9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Josh 23:15 But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you.

2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie


I could go on, but the point should be clear to anyone who can read these scriptures. God creates and uses various evils: lying spirits, delusion, destruction, disaster, even the wicked are made for the Lord.

So how do these verses suggest that "evil" was not planted by God? You might say that TARES were planted by Satan. True. But Satan can do nothing that God does not allow. Once again we see that God is in full control.



Folks, what you are witnessing here is the carnal nature in Finn rejecting the plain scriptures of God that say He created, caused, brought about, and used evil. The spiritual cannot be understood by the carnal. The carnal nature is blind to these scriptures. Finn, please consider the above verses.

Last edited by legoman; 06-21-2010 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 06-21-2010, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,945 posts, read 7,245,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The Isaiah verse has already been explained to you, so you'll have to come up with something else. To say "bible teaches it" without quoting the scripture just won't cut it.

Yes, there are plants which God did not plant, and it is written that they will be uprooted, and people who willingly keep eating the fruit of the evil tree will be thrown in the lake of fire. Why has it not been done yet? It is written it will be done, when it is time to do it, not before.
The "fruit that the Father did not plant" is not referring to all life, but the nature in man that is to be burned up.

Contend with the sovereignty scriptures I posted earlier please.
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