U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-23-2010, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,626 posts, read 32,096,873 times
Reputation: 9437

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
God created Satan with the complete foreknowledge of what he would become, for the express purpose of destroying the carnal nature in man.

Any objections?
The Bible teaches that God sent his son to resolve the problem with sin, but you say he sent Satan. Yes, I object to that kind of teaching.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-23-2010, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,626 posts, read 32,096,873 times
Reputation: 9437
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I think he is thinking of this verse. I Corinthians 5:5: Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
"Hand him over to Satan" in that passage means "expel him from the church". This is about a church member who was guilty of sexual immorality, and Paul said he should be expelled from the church so he would understand how serious his offence was. That would lead to repentence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2010, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,390,352 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
"Hand him over to Satan" in that passage means "expel him from the church". This is about a church member who was guilty of sexual immorality, and Paul said he should be expelled from the church so he would understand how serious his offence was. That would lead to repentence.
If you had read the rest of my post and the following posts, you would see that I said pretty much what you just wrote.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2010, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,580,122 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post

Now about that riddle................you'll have to help me out here.
"A dove went down to the roots of the highlands"

Here's hint #1: It's a sort of transliteration of a verse from a well known Bible story.

There is a wealth of info surrounding it concerning this thread.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,010,608 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
I think you are mixing sin and suffering together here. Yes, it is true that sin and evil lead to suffering, but one can suffer without having sinned.


Yes, yes, yes , finally

So Lego if one can suffer without having sinned, why is it you believe man had to fall into disobedience and sin in order to learn about suffering?

Have you not been stating all along that God planned for man to be disobedient and fall into sin in order to understand suffering?

Yet you just admitted man can suffer without having to sin.

And that is what I have been saying all along.

There are two types of suffering, one type is to suffer as the evil doer does (which is through disobedience and sin) and the other is to suffer for righteousness sake or the gospel of Jesus Christ. Which is what I have tried to point when I said Jesus suffered for righteousness sake and the glory that awaited Him.



Quote:
Another point is that sin & evil are necessary if we wish to learn how to overcome it. How could we experience what forgiveness is if there was nothing to forgive people of?


This follows along with what we have been talking about in regards to suffering.

You seem to think man had to fall into sin through disobedience in order to understand forgiveness.

So again, I will point you to Jesus

Jesus never fell into sin through disobedience yet He knew forgiveness better than us all.

So again, Jesus proves forgiveness can be known without man falling into disobedience and sin.

So if you can agree that man did not have to fall into disobedience and sin in order to understand forgiveness, I have something further to say on the matter of sin and evil and it has nothing to do with God creating sin and evil in order to use it after the fashion you people have been putting forward. It has to do with God making lemonade out of ---- lemons.




Quote:
pneuma, you are presenting some contradicting ideas.


Quote:
You said: "And by the way I believe Godís plan was to create us perfect without the need of entering into sin, evil and death."

So why did sin, evil, and death enter? According to you it was not in God's plan. That is why I said you believe God's (first) plan failed. You said it with the statement above. Now maybe you didn't mean that exactly and can clarify that for me.


What contradictory in what I said?

Gods plan has always been through Jesus Christ; He was, is and always will be Gods plan.

Your question should not be why did sin, evil and death enter, but rather you should ask WHEN did sin, evil and death enter.

And I will answer this after I see if you or others agree that suffering and forgiveness can be known without mankind falling into disobedience and sin.

You already agreed with the suffering part, but do you also agree with the forgiveness part?

And I am not just asking Lego, I am asking all the readers of this thread those same questions.

Quote:
Yes I know you explained it. And your explanation is a contradiction. When I say God is all-knowing, I believe He knows all. That is what all-knowing means.



When I say God is all knowing I believe He knows it all also.

Quote:
You say God is all-knowing and He doesn't know everything.


I never said that lego. Please show me where I said this

Quote:
I scratch my head, because what you say is a contradiction. In my books, you are confused. An "all-knowing" God that doesn't know everything is not all-knowing.


Again, I never said God does not know everything, your simply sticking with your understanding of all knowing and because it is different than my understanding you are superimposing your belief over mine and saying I said something I did not. So if I said God is not all knowing please show me where I said it.

Quote:
Yes you provided some scripture and gave your opinion that you think it means God didn't know some things. THEN why do you still say God is all-knowing?


I never said God did not know some things lego, I said God finds out all things, thus making Him all knowing.


Quote:
Yes you did give me some scriptures, but you also gave me your opinion that they mean God is not all-knowing.


Eek gad how many times are you going to misrepresent me in one post?
Please show me where I said God is not all knowing.

Quote:
My opinion is that your opinion is incorrect because it would mean God is not all-knowing.


That fine, you can say in your opinion my view of Godís all knowing means God is not all knowing, but to say I said God is not all knowing is a total misrepresentation of what I said.


Quote:
Do you really believe that God is somewhere else and has to "come down" to see what is happening with the tower of babel?


Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

This is a parable of God planting a vineyard, letting it out to husbandmen and going into a FAR COUNTRY. Then God sends His servants to gather the fruits of the vineyard and the husbandmen took and beat and killed God servants. But last of all God sends His son SAYING they will reverence my son, but alas the husbandman did not reverence Gods son as God thought they would, but killed Him also. So Jesus asked this question: when the lord therefore of the vineyard COMETH, what will He do unto those husbandmen?

Now you can say that this is all figurative language or try to put it off as only a parable so not everything should be understood just like it is written.

But, God did plant a vineyard, God did let it out to husbandman, those husbandman did kill God servants and His son; so if all these point are true to point why do you disbelieve the parts about where it says God went into a FAR COUNTRY and when He said they will reverence my son.

What is only part of the parable true?

Quote:
I'm sorry pneuma, but to me this is a ridiculous picture of God you are presenting, considering what I know the scriptures say.


Well I just gave you scriptures, whatís your understanding of them?

Quote:
God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. Thus your opinion of what those scriptures mean cannot be right IMHO.

The reason I know those verses about God "coming down" are figurative is because I know there are other verses that say God is omnipresent and knows all.


You keep saying this but where are those scriptures that say God is omnipresent?

Omnipresent search of scriptures; omnipresent not found






Quote:
pneuma, I could be wrong on my beliefs and that is fine. But you must realize it is not you giving facts while I'm just giving "opinion". We both have our opinions and understanding of the scripture based on what we have studied and what has been revealed in our heart.



Letís face it brother/sister we are both only given our opinion on what we believe, the difference being I gave you scripture with my opinion, and you just gave your opinion and never supplied scripture to back it up. And that is what I look for so that I can see where you are coming from, if it is just opinion without scriptural backing imo that just someoneís opinion. Do you see what I mean?

I gave you scripture that stated God came down to see Sodom and her sister because He wanted to see if everything, He heard was correct. You did not reply with any scripture to refute what I gave you just gave an opinion, if you had of used scripture then I could have said ok at least I know where he/she is coming from.



Quote:
Yes it does, but on a fundamental point like "does God know everything?" - if we don't get agreement on that then the rest of the discussion is moot because the answer to that question radically affects the rest of the discussion.

IMHO everything I have read in scripture points to God always knowing all things. It is plainly obvious to me. I believe you are misinterpreting certain scriptures to make the case that God does not know some things.



I believe God knows all things lego and that is the proper understanding of all knowing.

It is not I that is changing the meaning of all knowing it is you, for you believe all knowing means God know everything that happens before it happens. Lego that is not all knowing, that is all foreknowing, and they are worlds apart.


Quote:
To me it is absurd to think that God does not know some things, and leads to a whole host of theological problems.



Again and again, I have to state I believe God knows all things, I however donít believe God foreknows all things as in every step people take.

Quote:
Not to mention the common understanding of God (AFAIK) is that He is all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, etc. And by "all-knowing" I really mean knowing all things.



I really donít care what the common understanding of God is lego, the common understanding of God is that He is going to eternally torment most of his creation in a lake of fire. Seems to me the common understanding is wrong more than it is right.

What does AFAIK stand for?

Quote:
And really you are misrepresenting your own beliefs if you say God is "all-knowing". AFAIK you only believe God will eventually know all things. That is a world of difference from being truly all-knowing.



Lego if one comes to know everything that can possibly be understood about a subject, is that person then all knowing of that subject or not?

Quote:
I know I didn't address your whole post & questions ... its late, I will try to do the rest in the morning. If I misunderstood you on some points - please clarify, I don't wish to cause strife, only understand.



Lego I know that it is time consuming to make an answer to everything I write, but I take the time to answer everything someone writes to mefor three reasons. First, because I am only after the truth and it might be God will use another to help me see things more clearly. Secondly, because I believe in quid pro quo (equal exchange). Thirdly, because leaving a question or point unanswered gives the impression I do not have an answer to those questions or point brought up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2010, 06:50 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,568,178 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
And I will answer this after I see if you or others agree that suffering and forgiveness can be known without mankind falling into disobedience and sin.
Hi Scott,

My (bobf) 2 cents on this point...

No. You and I can not know forgiveness and suffering without the existence of evil and sin in the world.

We can not...
- forgive sinners
- overcome evil with good
- when reviled, revile not
- when threatened, threaten not
- bless those who curse us
- love our enemies
...unless there are sinners, evil, revilers and threateners, cursers, and enemies in the world.

The above acts were all on display when Christ showed us God's glory on the cross. This would not have been possible without the existence of evil and sinners in the world.

That said, your sin and my sin do not lead us towards or into the kingdom of God. They lead in the opposite direction.

The underlined verses below all required the existence of evil, sin, sinners in the world in order for Christ to show us His glory.
  • Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your soul.
  • 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.
  • Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 05:21 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,770,263 times
Reputation: 58199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Hi Scott,

My (bobf) 2 cents on this point...

No. You and I can not know forgiveness and suffering without the existence of evil and sin in the world.

We can not...
- forgive sinners
- overcome evil with good
- when reviled, revile not
- when threatened, threaten not
- bless those who curse us
- love our enemies
...unless there are sinners, evil, revilers and threateners, cursers, and enemies in the world.

The above acts were all on display when Christ showed us God's glory on the cross. This would not have been possible without the existence of evil and sinners in the world.

That said, your sin and my sin do not lead us towards or into the kingdom of God. They lead in the opposite direction.

The underlined verses below all required the existence of evil, sin, sinners in the world in order for Christ to show us His glory.
  • Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your soul.
  • 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.
  • Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
Very good post and shows exactly why God created and allows sin and evil....it must be in order for us to learn the virtues of Christ. Our world is filled with opposites in order to teach us certain things. It is our responsibility to oppose the bad and embrace the good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,626 posts, read 32,096,873 times
Reputation: 9437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Very good post and shows exactly why God created and allows sin and evil....it must be in order for us to learn the virtues of Christ. Our world is filled with opposites in order to teach us certain things.
You're saying God created evil in order to enable the torture and murder of his son Jesus Christ? No, God sent his son here BECAUSE of sin. And no, it was not because he was trying to correct his error for creating sin, it was to offer people a way out of sin and into eternal life.

Quote:
It is our responsibility to oppose the bad and embrace the good.
You mean there is free will to oppose it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 06:44 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,770,263 times
Reputation: 58199
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You're saying God created evil in order to enable the torture and murder of his son Jesus Christ? No, God sent his son here BECAUSE of sin. And no, it was not because he was trying to correct his error for creating sin, it was to offer people a way out of sin and into eternal life.
No I'm saying God created sin and evil way before the torture and murder of Jesus Christ.....if there were no sin then what would Jesus have needed to die for Finn??? Stop twisting what I'm saying. God made no errors in creating sin and evil, it serves His purpose of teaching us right from wrong, good from bad, compassion, patience, understanding, and LOVE. Have you not learned these things in your lifetime Finn? If you have not, especially LOVE, then you need to turn back to the cross.

Quote:
You mean there is free will to oppose it?
No one said anything about free will. I said it is our responsibility to oppose evil and sin, and we do that by God directing our steps.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,626 posts, read 32,096,873 times
Reputation: 9437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
it (evil) serves His purpose of teaching us right from wrong, good from bad, compassion, patience, understanding, and LOVE.
I do not believe he sent evil to tech us that, I believe he sent Christ and Holy Spirit to teach us that.

Quote:
Have you not learned these things in your lifetime Finn? If you have not, especially LOVE, then you need to turn back to the cross.
Yes, I learned them when I accepted Christ. I did not learn them through sinful lifestyle.


Quote:
No one said anything about free will. I said it is our responsibility to oppose evil and sin, and we do that by God directing our steps
If you say it is our responsibility, then one must choose to behave responsibly. It is all about free will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top