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Old 06-24-2010, 08:27 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,564,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The Bible teaches that God sent his son to resolve the problem with sin, but you say he sent Satan. Yes, I object to that kind of teaching.
There is nothing in the believer's life that inflicts suffering more than evil (working patience, teaching us to trust, etc.). We're learning to lean on that life of Christ because of the influence of evil.

God has always used death and darkness to bring forth life and light.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:44 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,566,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Very good post and shows exactly why God created and allows sin and evil....it must be in order for us to learn the virtues of Christ. Our world is filled with opposites in order to teach us certain things. It is our responsibility to oppose the bad and embrace the good.
Amen.

Christ prayed to the Father right before His crucifixion that His disciples would be present with Him to witness His death, to behold His glory... the glory of Christ laying down His life for all sinners.
  • John 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world
  • John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Had Christ not died "it abideth alone" but since Christ gave His life for us "it bringeth forth much fruit" and this was the hour "that the Son of man SHOULD BE glorified".
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,541 posts, read 31,936,781 times
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James 1:13-15 No one, when tempted, should say, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,000,369 times
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Quote:
No. You and I can not know forgiveness and suffering without the existence of evil and sin in the world.
Hi Bob, I wondered when you were going to show up, good to see you again.


Bob, that does not answer my question.

I never asked if we can know forgiveness and suffering without the existance of evil and sin in the world.

I asked if you people beleive man had to fall into disobedience and sin in order to understand forgiveness and suffering.

Lego agreed that falling into disobedience and sin were not needful in order to understand suffering and I am wondering if he/she can also see that falling into disobedeince and sin were not needful in order to understand forgiveness.


And I am not just asking lego those two questions I am asking every reader that is reading this thread. So do you (Bob) beleive man had to fall into sin through disobedience in order to understand these things?

And please keep in mind Jesus Christ NEVER had to in order to understand these things.

By the way I agree with those scriptures but from a different perspective and when I give an answer to sin and evil I think all will see the relevence.(whether or not they will agree with me or not is another story, but I think all will see the relevence).
It about God making lemonade out of lemons.

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Old 06-24-2010, 09:31 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,566,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi Bob, I wondered when you were going to show up, good to see you again.


Bob, that does not answer my question.

I never asked if we can know forgiveness and suffering without the existance of evil and sin in the world.

I asked if you people beleive man had to fall into disobedience and sin in order to understand forgiveness and suffering.

Lego agreed that falling into disobedience and sin were not needful in order to understand suffering and I am wondering if he/she can also see that falling into disobedeince and sin were not needful in order to understand forgiveness.


And I am not just asking lego those two questions I am asking every reader that is reading this thread. So do you (Bob) beleive man had to fall into sin through disobedience in order to understand these things?

And please keep in mind Jesus Christ NEVER had to in order to understand these things.

By the way I agree with those scriptures but from a different perspective and when I give an answer to sin and evil I think all will see the relevence.(whether or not they will agree with me or not is another story, but I think all will see the relevence).
It about God making lemonade out of lemons.
My point was that someone had to fall into disobedience in order for you & I to follow Christ up onto the cross and learn forgiveness and suffering. That means that at least some of mankind had to fall or it means that some other being had to fall. Given that our daily interactions and opportunities to bear sins and forgive are amongst other people, yes that would necessitate that at least some of mankind had to fall in order for you and I to understand (and more importantly actually fulfill) these things.

Are you specifically asking if you & I must sin in order for you & I to understand forgiveness and suffering?
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:00 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,411,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
My point was that someone had to fall into disobedience in order for you & I to follow Christ up onto the cross and learn forgiveness and suffering. That means that at least some of mankind had to fall or it means that some other being had to fall. Given that our daily interactions and opportunities to bear sins and forgive are amongst other people, yes that would necessitate that at least some of mankind had to fall in order for you and I to understand (and more importantly actually fulfill) these things.

Are you specifically asking if you & I must sin in order for you & I to understand forgiveness and suffering?
"My point was that someone had to fall into disobedience in order for you & I to follow Christ up onto the cross and learn forgiveness and suffering."

Exactly. I think you and I are on the same page TKC.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:12 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,566,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
"My point was that someone had to fall into disobedience in order for you & I to follow Christ up onto the cross and learn forgiveness and suffering."

Exactly. I think you and I are on the same page TKC.
Yes.

But, amongst us, who are not the Word made flesh, who are not the exact representation of His character, who are not I am before Abraham was.... there is also this principle:
  • Luke 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. 41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most.
  • Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

So amongst us "of the earth, earthy" men : those who are forgiven little, love little and those who are forgiven much, love much.

Nevertheless we should never say, let's sin so grace can abound.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,000,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
My point was that someone had to fall into disobedience in order for you & I to follow Christ up onto the cross and learn forgiveness and suffering. That means that at least some of mankind had to fall or it means that some other being had to fall. Given that our daily interactions and opportunities to bear sins and forgive are amongst other people, yes that would necessitate that at least some of mankind had to fall in order for you and I to understand (and more importantly actually fulfill) these things.

Are you specifically asking if you & I must sin in order for you & I to understand forgiveness and suffering?
No I was not asking if you and I must sin to understand these things

Bob the part I redded is close to the point I am getting at, mankind NEVER had to fall into disobedience and sin in order to understand forgiveness and suffering becuase sin and all it pertains to was ALREADY in the world because of the angels that kept not their first estate. And that it was already in the world God makes lemonade out of the lemons that were already here. Just as God used the evil intent of Joseph's brothers to weave good, He takes the evil already in the world and weaves good out of it.

Therefore to say man had to be disobdeint and sin in order to understand suffering and forgiveness is an error, and Jesus' life shows forth this error as He never fell into disonedience and sin yet knew fully these principles.

Therefore it was not Gods plan that man sin, but rather Gods plan to make known unto the powers in heavenly places the life of Christ.

And to say God created the evil that was already in the world is in error because God did not create the earth without form and void, yet we read in the beginning the the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon it and God said let there be light and there was light and God divided or CUT DOWN the darkness by the light He created.

Does anyone reading hear what I am saying? if so I will expand on it, if not then it is not profitable to continue at this time and will leave off speaking for the time being on this subject.

Got to run, be back later

God bless

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Old 06-24-2010, 10:29 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,411,663 times
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Hi pneuma, first of all, I am a "he" (thus legoman)

Secondly, AFAIK means as "As far as I know".

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I asked if you people beleive man had to fall into disobedience and sin in order to understand forgiveness and suffering.

Lego agreed that falling into disobedience and sin were not needful in order to understand suffering and I am wondering if he/she can also see that falling into disobedeince and sin were not needful in order to understand forgiveness.
Suffering in itself does not necessarily require sin & disobedience. But certainly sin & disobedience leads to suffering. Furthermore sin & disobedience are needful to understand forgiveness.

We could not experience forgiving others if people did not sin against us.
We could not experience being forgiven if we did not sin against others.
We could not experience reconciliation if we did not need to be reconciled in the first place.

So in that sense, in order to learn and experience forgiveness, sin and disobedience is needful.

Christ showed the greatest example of forgiving others by what He did on the cross. It demonstrated the greatest love possible, the greatest forgiveness possible, because we are all sinners, and because He laid down His life for every person.

If you argument is: "Christ didn't 'need' to sin, why do we?" ... don't you think Christ is a bit of an exception?
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:37 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,411,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Lego I know that it is time consuming to make an answer to everything I write, but I take the time to answer everything someone writes to mefor three reasons. First, because I am only after the truth and it might be God will use another to help me see things more clearly. Secondly, because I believe in quid pro quo (equal exchange). Thirdly, because leaving a question or point unanswered gives the impression I do not have an answer to those questions or point brought up.
Then please forgive me. When I wrote that post, I had spent over an hour replying to it and it was already 1:30am. And the next day was a complete write off. Although it may seem that way sometime, I don't live 24/7 at city-data.com! I do intend to address what is necessary, but time is sometimes constrained. My next 2 days are also quite busy and then I am away for a week (family vacation), so my posting will be somewhat limited. I hope you understand.

I will try to address some things today though.
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