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Old 06-25-2010, 05:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Lego and Bob, just a quick note to let you know I will be replying when I have time, I'll be tied up for the next couple of days but will try to get back to you guys the first of the week.

God bless
Ok, thanks Scott.
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Old 06-25-2010, 05:45 PM
 
Location: RV Park
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I think it's important to add that when Adam "bought the farm" in taking the path of carnality, God sealed (guarded) the way of Life by posting Cherubim at each end of the garden. (Gen 3:24)

Man must be excluded from the Tree of Life until a provision is made which allows him to approach and partake of it. Adam is not only driven out of Paradise; but a guard is assigned to the place to make any approach to it impossible.

The Cherubim were placed to “keep the way of the tree of life,” and it is interesting to note that the word here for “keep” is in the Hebrew shamar, meaning “to guard, to protect, to defend, to hedge about as with thorns.” The statement following makes this plain, for the Lord explained, “Lest he (Adam) put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever…” (Gen. 3:22).

The flaming sword was a prohibition - life was denied to mankind by God, and so death came upon every man, even those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:35 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,760,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I think it's important to add that when Adam "bought the farm" in taking the path of carnality, God sealed (guarded) the way of Life by posting Cherubim at each end of the garden. (Gen 3:24)

Man must be excluded from the Tree of Life until a provision is made which allows him to approach and partake of it. Adam is not only driven out of Paradise; but a guard is assigned to the place to make any approach to it impossible.

The Cherubim were placed to “keep the way of the tree of life,” and it is interesting to note that the word here for “keep” is in the Hebrew shamar, meaning “to guard, to protect, to defend, to hedge about as with thorns.” The statement following makes this plain, for the Lord explained, “Lest he (Adam) put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever…” (Gen. 3:22).

The flaming sword was a prohibition - life was denied to mankind by God, and so death came upon every man, even those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.
That's true Elmer...I forgot about the Cherubim guarding the garden. Do you still think there is a physical garden or is it now spiritual? I don't mean a physical place on earth, but physically it might still exist in the heavenlies. Just something I think about. If it's on earth then it's well hidden!!
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:26 AM
 
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The description of God creating evil is concerning God taking responsibility for it's existance.

When he created us, he knew we would experience what we call evil because that is what must occur if we are to be one with him.

God not being able to change that makes no difference whatsoever to Gods sovereigty.

In other words "if" I try to make a poor excuse for an analogy knowing that human analogies are hard to assert towards God it could be something like this.

God knew that by creating man knowing man would one day be with him man would experience things that would cause man to hate him.

God was ok with that because he already knows the end result. God gave us the written word knowing that there is only so many ways in our realm that we could begin to see how glorious the end result is.

So God, since he can take anything we throw at him says "my fault" hate me, spit on me, ignore me, reject me, I know the final outcome and when you are one with me, you will see that you would have created mankind too, knowing what I know.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Hi all, sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys.

A few post backs I mentioned that I would not keep going with this subject because I believed it would be unprofitable.

Part of me wants to reply to all the points you people bring forth in order to show that there is an answer to them, but as I have already done this to your other points, all to no benefit, it would be unprofitable at this time.

When I read over your posts in order to respond and came across these statements by Lego

Quote:
These scriptures do not need to be answered. They simply confirm that the result of everything that God does will be GOOD. It is GOOD that God is giving us a knowledge of good and evil, because if He didn't, we wouldn't know how to be GOOD. That is what this life is for. To give us this knowledge.



In regards to these scriptures

Quote:
Matthew 7:17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 12:33
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Romans 13:10
10 Love worketh no ill/evil to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;


It reaffirmed my belief in the unprofitableness of carrying on with this topic.

Those statements made by Lego do not answer those scriptures in anyway shape or form, and yet not one of you people who disagree with me challenged Lego’s statements above concerning those scriptures. This shows me the unprofitableness of which I spoke of, for either you people agreed with Lego’s answer (which is no answer) (and your silence speaks volumes) or you cannot answer them yourselves.

Stating that those scriptures do not need to be answered because they simply confirm that the result of everything that God does will be GOOD is a total contradiction to what those scriptures say.

Jesus said A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. And Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Jesus did NOT say a good tree could bring forth evil fruit as long as the evil is used for good.

Jesus said EITHER make the tree good or make the tree corrupt and you people simply are refusing to do this or cannot understand this concept.

Furthermore, Paul says love worketh NO evil nor THINKETH NO evil.

So if God is love (and He is) thinketh NO evil how is it He then could create evil, something that never even enters into His mind?

I find it somewhat ironic that you people say to our ET brethren things like (how can you believe a God of love is going to torment most of His creation in the lake of fire), and then turn around and tell me that not only is God going to torment most of His creation in the lake of fire, God actually planned it all out that way.

You people are very fond of the scripture that says it is not Gods will that any perish to support UR, but seem to forget it when speaking of evil. If it is not Gods will that any perish, why then believe that God wants people to perish and even planned it all out that way? You cannot have it both ways.

It is no wonder that those who believe in ET refuse or have a hard time believing in UR, the reason is because the way you people present UR is circular, God does not will anyone to perish yet, God is the cause of people perishing. Can you people not see how circular your reasoning is?

What you people believe simply means there is really no such things as disobedience to God, for if God is directing mans steps after the fashion most of you believe He is people are in effect actually being obedient to Gods directions.

Your belief takes away any need for repentance, for you people believe God is directing mans steps in disobedience and if this is so what need is there for man to repent?


I know you people hate the word puppet, but if God is directing mans steps in all things as you believe and man cannot change this fact in any way shape of form, you have just described the perfect puppet.

Concerning predestination, I have reflected and prayed about this because no answer I have ever read makes an answer to all scripture. Augustine, like Luther did not believe in mans freewill because the scriptures speak of predestination. Calvin likewise stumbled on this issue saying only Gods elect are predesinated and the rest of mankind are not.

So people either believed in predestination and done away with the freewill of man, or believed in the freewill of man, which did away with predestination.

But the scripture speak of both the freewill of man (look it up, its one word freewill not two free will ) and predestination so both must be true. So instead of looking for scripture that only supports one view it behoves us to look at both views and see where the problem lies.

Predestination does not come BEFORE the choice of man it comes AFTER man has made their choice. When God set the tree and said do not eat or you die, God foreknew that if man ate from the tree man would die. Man was not predestined to dies BEFORE he ate from the tree but AFTER man ate from the tree. In other words when we are obedient to God we are predestinated to life and when we disobey God we are predestinated to death. This is the choice God sets before man every single day, life and death, obedience or disobedience and He encourages us to choose life.

Thus, freewill and predestination are reconciled and we don’t have to give up the belief in one in favour of the belief in the other.

The scriptures tell us sin (which encompasses disobedience) is of the devil, yet many here are saying sin and disobedience is of God. Applying the things of satan to God is blaspheme and is why I said before, everyone needs to step back and listen to what Jesus and those whom Jesus revealed the Father to had to say about the Father. Quit listening to Moses and Elijah, Augustine, Luther and Calvin, for the Father Himself said this is my son HEAR HIM.

And this is what Jesus and those whom He revealed the Father to have to say.

Matthew 7:17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 12:33
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Romans 13:10
10 Love worketh no ill/evil to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Whom are you going to listen to?
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:10 AM
 
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Hi pneuma, glad you are back, hope all is well.

Regarding "freewill" in the scripture, in every instance the word "freewill" is used (as far as I know) it is referring to a "freewill offering", which simply means a voluntary offering. This has nothing do with the "free will" people speak of which means making free choices free from any cause or influence. No one denies man has a will to make choices. The question: is that will free from any influence? And of course it is not free from influence.

If you think that makes us "puppets", or "robots", then so be it, but we are the most incredibly complex "robot" ever invented - a robot that can learn, grow, experience, and love. But to be fair scripture does not even give us the honor of being called a puppet or robot. Scripture uses the example of an "axe in God's hands". Scripture calls us "pots". Scripture calls us CLAY. Clay is MUD or DUST, which is where we came from - we were formed from dust. Clay can do nothing on its own.

But the real issue here is the question of God's foreknowledge. If we cannot come to a resolution on the issue of whether God knows every single event in the future, then we certainly will not be seeing eye to eye on the problem of evil. So in that sense I agree it may be unprofitable to continue until we can address what God's foreknowledge entails. I covered this in post #256, feel free to address it if you wish.

A simple question: do you think God has knowledge of good and evil? Because you say God "thinketh no evil" and evil "did not enter His mind"... but how could that be true if He has knowledge of good and evil?
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Pneuma,

If there were no paradoxes in the world, we would not need faith at all.

But there are paradoxes. The just shall live by faith. Surely God even made the enemy (that is, the devil) to do the dirty work that must be done in order for us to become like God, knowing both good and evil. Don't you think? Otherwise, why would the Sovereign Lord of the Universe ever have allowed sin to enter the world if it were not his will and He is all powerful. I think the "Lake of Fire" is both figurative and real - look around the globe and see the people burning up from hatred and war. Does not God allow this to be (for now)???

Heartsong
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:16 AM
 
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Predestination and "free will" cannot both simultaneously exist.

For if God has predestined what we will do, then we are not free to do anything else... therefore no free will.

And if God predestines "after" we have made a choice, then it is not PRE-destination. The suffix "pre" means BEFORE, so it is an oxymoron to say that God predestines after our free will choice.
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Pneuma,

If there were no paradoxes in the world, we would not need faith at all.

But there are paradoxes. The just shall live by faith. Surely God even made the enemy (that is, the devil) to do the dirty work that must be done in order for us to become like God, knowing both good and evil. Don't you think? Otherwise, why would the Sovereign Lord of the Universe ever have allowed sin to enter the world if it were not his will and He is all powerful. I think the "Lake of Fire" is both figurative and real - look around the globe and see the people burning up from hatred and war. Does not God allow this to be (for now)???

Heartsong
I don't beleive there are paradoxes in Gods word HS. everything must be reconciled with each other. if a paradox exists then it is because of man inability to understand God word.

Please read the thread to see my view of satan and how he came to be.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Canada
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In case I am not articulating clearly what I have been saying I will put this forth for clarification.

Concerning freewill

Peter says we are to willingly feed the flock of God not by constraint but of a willing mind.

1 Peter 5:2
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Constraint is something that limits freedom of action. Examples: force, compelling, threats.

Therefore, we are not to feed the flock because we are forced to feed them.

We are not to feed the flock because we are compelled to feed them.

We are not to feed the flock because of threats.

We are to feed them willingly from a willing mind.

If God is pulling all the strings then we are forced or at least compelled by those strings to feed the flock. This is totally contrary to what Peter said.

And the Psalmist backs up Peter here.

Psalm 32:8-9
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. 9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule,which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

If one must be led about by God with bit and bridle they are no different than the horse or mule that has no understanding.

The problem with understanding the freewill of man is that most believe that because there are causes and influences that bombard us from all directions mans will is not really free to make a choice. But freewill is making a choice REGARDLESS of the influences that bombard us.

I have often likened it to the cartoon where on one shoulder the devil sits and on the other shoulder an angel sits. Both the devil and the angel try to influence man to follow their directions. Neither the devil nor the angel can make the choice for man; man’s will is free to follow whichever influence he wants.

Paul says Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Freewill is the choice to follow whom you will REGARDLESS of the influences that bombard us.

Neither God nor the Devil can take away our freedom of choice, man either YIELDS to one influence or the other; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness.

That is why God said

Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death

And in another place said

I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:



Concerning predestination

Predestination simply means to determine before.

BEFORE man makes a choice God has determined that if man chooses death, man will walk in the way of death, if man chooses life man will walk in the way of life.

This is seen here

Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death

And in another place said

I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The problem with predestination is that most believe that God predetermined man to walk in the way of death and man could not do anything about this, yet no scripture ever states such a thing. However, the two scriptures I supplied above show emphatically that what God predetermined is life or death and man can freely chooses which way he walks.

Predestination is concerning life or death, NOT concerning the freewill choice of man. Thus when man chooses death man has chosen this predestination. And when man chooses life man has chosen this predestination.

Thus, freewill and predestination are reconciled.





Concerning foreknowledge

Foreknowledge is the knowledge of things happening before they happen.

God foreknew that if men choose death man would walk in the ways of death, and God foreknew that if men choose life man would walk in the ways of life.

The problem with foreknowledge is that many equate foreknowledge with predestination. They are NOT the same thing. Just because one know beforehand a certain event will take place does not mean that the event was predestinated to happen.

Example: I knew BEFOREHAND that most here would reject what I had to offer on these topics, does that mean then that all who have rejected what I have to offer was predestinated to reject it? Hardly.

God’s foreknowledge does work closely in hand with predestination but they are not the same thing. God foreknew the two ways given to man to freely choose from. God foreknows all the ways of death and every step man will make when following the ways of death. God also foreknows all the ways of life and every step man will make when following the ways of life.

What God does NOT do is predestinate by foreknowledge that man walk in the ways of death or life. This according to God Himself is man’s choice.

Man chooses the way of death, and God knows all that man will go through, all the suffering and evil, because He knows all the ways of death. Tis the same with the all the ways of life.




Concerning Clay

We are clay in the master’s hand. But the funny thing about clay is that clay has a will of its own and always tries to return to its previous form. This is why God must continue to work with clay in order to shape the clay. If you have ever worked with clay or watched someone working with clay you would see that the clay FALLS in all directions, and it takes LOVING and GENTLE hands in order to get the clay into the shape the potter wants.




Concerning Love thinketh no evil/love worketh no evil

Having knowledge of good and evil is NOT the same thing as working evil or thinking evil.

Not working evil means one is not engaged in or with evil, one does not perform or employ evil, one does not exercise or cause to exist or produce evil.

We can KNOW evil, but we are not to employ, produce or cause to exist evil.

Therefore, God knows evil, but does not employ, produce or cause to exist evil.

Anyway, I have said all I really can on this subject for the time being, to continue would only be repeating myself over and over again which is unprofitable.

Lego you said that we could not come to agreement because our views on foreknowledge differ, but it is not our views on foreknowledge that is the hinderance here.

The hinderance is that I have supplied scripture that is totally contrary to what you people beleive to be true and you guys refuse to look at anything outside of what you beleive.

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