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Old 06-16-2010, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 880,495 times
Reputation: 293

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It seems to me we have two choices. God either planned for evil to enter His creation, for some higher purpose that it result in a good thing, OR something could disrupt His plan in which case I don't know HOW we could ever be guaranteed that there will EVER be a point in which something bad could not again disrupt His plans. Even foreknowledge of man's action does not alleviate the disruption of His plan if He didn't desire for it to happen.

Many would say, 'Oh if only Adam/Eve had never sinned, what a wonderful life we would have lived.' But, will it not be better this way, with glorified bodies, being in perfect symmetry with the Father, knowing good from evil and the depth of our Father's love by which he devised to send His son to redeem us from death? Which has more love, he who never had to be forgiven or he who has been forgiven MUCH? I believe scripture asked/answered that question. Who would praise more? The one who thinks he deserves or is entitled to his good gifts or the one who knows that only the immeasurable mercy of his Father grants the joy of God's life? AT one time I could not bear anyone attributing evil to a benevolent Father, now I see that it was necessary and because God can redeem and reverse all consequences of evil, that it has been a temporary necessity in His overall plan to create sons and daughters.

Peace and joy to everyone who meditates on the love of the Father.
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:33 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,487,924 times
Reputation: 598
Genesis 2:9

And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


And evil means evil.The Greek word is ra,which is defined as evil,not darkness or some other ambiguous meaning.

Nothing has happened that God did not permit.Nothing.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:25 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,765,870 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Fair enough, but is that much different?

OK say God creates disaster, but not evil. God creates earthquakes, tsunami's, burning buildings, floods, etc. These are physical disasters. What about emotional/social disaster. Death of a loved one. Drug abuse. Addiction. War. Divorce. These are all disasters in life. Does God create those?

What we are really talking about is if God is in control of the bad stuff. And of course He is... He's God! He's in control of everything.

God is the cause of all things - He is the one who created the universe. He is the first cause.

Even if you want to believe it was free will that caused sin, who is it that gave man free will, knowing full well they would sin? GOD.
My point exactly!! Who is it that is in control of EVERYTHING? GOD! Who is it that CREATED EVERYTHING........GOD!!
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,006,854 times
Reputation: 386
Default Whom are you going to listen to?

Arrrrrgggggg, this has got to be one of the most frustrating topics I have ever taken part in.

I donít know how those who profess to know God can speak so evilly of Him.

There is a difference between knowing of God and knowing God.

Israel of old like so many today knew of God but did not know Him; we see this throughout their writings. They constantly wrote of God being capable of both good and evil and Christians today have swallowed this hook, line and sinker.

Everyone tries to reconcile the OT with the NT, but they CANNOT be reconciled in the fashion people are trying to do this.

OT writers say God can do both good and evil.

Jesus (who came to reveal the Father) CORRECTS their misunderstanding; Jesus says a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit and we should either make the tree GOOD and its fruit GOOD or make the tree EVIL and it fruit EVIL.

Just whom are you going to listen to?

Are you going to listen to Moses and the prophets or Jesus Christ? Who is it that knew the Father?

So many are making the mistake Peter made while on the MT of transfiguration, they are building temples to Moses and Elijah, but the Father says this is my beloved son HEAR HIM.

Probably the biggest reason that Israel of old wrote about God as they did was because God said let us make man in our image and likeness; and they like many a Christian today believe this has already came to pass. Thus, because they believe man is already the image and likeness of God and man is capable of both good and evil they attribute to God these same traits. Thus, they have changed the incorruptible God into the image of corruptible man.

Many point out these scriptures

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So what is it that we can learn from scripture?

We learn that the OT writers wrote about God after the way they viewed Him.

We also learn that no one knows the Father except through the Son, and Jesusí view of the Father is very different from the writers of the OT.

Thus, if we HEAR HIM/JESUS we will be CORRECTED from the errors of Israel of old.

But alas people would rather try to reconcile what Israel of old wrote about God with what Jesus said about God, which leads to confusion (as can be seen throughout these type of threads) instead of correction.

I would suggest that everyone take a step back and HEAR HIM/JESUS and those He/Jesus revealed the Father too.

Jesus said a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit and we should either make the tree GOOD and its fruit GOOD or make the tree EVIL and it fruit EVIL.

Those whom Jesus revealed the Father to say God is Love and love worketh no evil nor thinketh evil.

Just whom are you going to listen to?
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:45 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,577,781 times
Reputation: 4463
pnuema, I respect your opinion but remember - we cannot put God in the catagory of "good and evil" - the Tree of Life is a firm lesson on a concept that the natural mind cannot process.

God can create everything in both categories, yet remain holy - for "holy" is righteous perfection (we cannot conceive of such), not "good".
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 880,495 times
Reputation: 293
I respectfully disagree with you Pneuma
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:43 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,765,870 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Arrrrrgggggg, this has got to be one of the most frustrating topics I have ever taken part in.

I donít know how those who profess to know God can speak so evilly of Him.

There is a difference between knowing of God and knowing God.

Israel of old like so many today knew of God but did not know Him; we see this throughout their writings. They constantly wrote of God being capable of both good and evil and Christians today have swallowed this hook, line and sinker.

Everyone tries to reconcile the OT with the NT, but they CANNOT be reconciled in the fashion people are trying to do this.

OT writers say God can do both good and evil.

Jesus (who came to reveal the Father) CORRECTS their misunderstanding; Jesus says a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit and we should either make the tree GOOD and its fruit GOOD or make the tree EVIL and it fruit EVIL.

Just whom are you going to listen to?

Are you going to listen to Moses and the prophets or Jesus Christ? Who is it that knew the Father?

So many are making the mistake Peter made while on the MT of transfiguration, they are building temples to Moses and Elijah, but the Father says this is my beloved son HEAR HIM.

Probably the biggest reason that Israel of old wrote about God as they did was because God said let us make man in our image and likeness; and they like many a Christian today believe this has already came to pass. Thus, because they believe man is already the image and likeness of God and man is capable of both good and evil they attribute to God these same traits. Thus, they have changed the incorruptible God into the image of corruptible man.

Many point out these scriptures

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So what is it that we can learn from scripture?

We learn that the OT writers wrote about God after the way they viewed Him.

We also learn that no one knows the Father except through the Son, and Jesusí view of the Father is very different from the writers of the OT.

Thus, if we HEAR HIM/JESUS we will be CORRECTED from the errors of Israel of old.

But alas people would rather try to reconcile what Israel of old wrote about God with what Jesus said about God, which leads to confusion (as can be seen throughout these type of threads) instead of correction.

I would suggest that everyone take a step back and HEAR HIM/JESUS and those He/Jesus revealed the Father too.

Jesus said a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit and we should either make the tree GOOD and its fruit GOOD or make the tree EVIL and it fruit EVIL.

Those whom Jesus revealed the Father to say God is Love and love worketh no evil nor thinketh evil.

Just whom are you going to listen to?
No one said God was evil!! God is nothing of the sort. God is not the things that He created.....He simply created sin and evil, that does not mean that's what He is! How can you deny the scriptures that say that very thing?

Matthew 5:45
that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Genesis 2:9
And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the groundótrees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

AND THE MOST TELLING SCRIPTURE OF ALL:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You're reading something into God's character that just isn't there. He is not His creation....HE IS GOD.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 880,495 times
Reputation: 293
Sin is missing the mark, not doing that which is right, and God is the standard of good. He created man with the ability to do that which goes against what He told us to do. I would not say that the Father created sin, but he created his creation capable of sinning and I would even go so far that by man's act of sinning, a greater good will...in the ultimate plan of God, result in the creation being LIKE God, made in His image, knowing good from evil. I suspect that there were no magical properties in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but merely by God telling Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the tree and they disobeyed.....that then they realized they were going to reap consequences for doing what they were told not to, and lived to see those results and how dire they were. And if they truly learned anything, they learned that the consequences were not near as bad as the fact that you betrayed a trust.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:50 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,379,665 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
Sin is missing the mark, not doing that which is right, and God is the standard of good. He created man with the ability to do that which goes against what He told us to do. I would not say that the Father created sin, but he created his creation capable of sinning and I would even go so far that by man's act of sinning, a greater good will...in the ultimate plan of God, result in the creation being LIKE God, made in His image, knowing good from evil. I suspect that there were no magical properties in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but merely by God telling Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the tree and they disobeyed.....that then they realized they were going to reap consequences for doing what they were told not to, and lived to see those results and how dire they were. And if they truly learned anything, they learned that the consequences were not near as bad as the fact that you betrayed a trust.
Wow, good post!
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,577,665 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHeart View Post
Isaiah 45:7



7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Nothing about EVIL in that verse.
The Hebrew is shown a few posts up. Ra' is the word - the same word used for moral evil in the O.T. as well as disasters. An NIV re-interpretation doesn't change it. Yet - the context leans toward prosperity vs. calamity and that most likely prompted the change.

Anyway you cut it though - darkness, evil, disaster etc. all exist by divine decree.
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