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Old 06-18-2010, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I respectfully disagree with you Pneuma
Thats ok sis, it happens from time to time
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Brother, the natural mind cannot understand anything spiritual, but we are to put on the mind of Christ, which is a mind that understands all things.

We are to understand these thing LE.

And God cannot according to Jesus create in both catagories

EITHER make the tree good and its fruit good OR make the tree evil and its fruit evil.

A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.

Brother we are to know those who are Christs by the fruit that they produce, if God can produce both ggod and evil fruit how in the world can we distiguish those who are Christs and those who aint?

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Therefore, as God creates by His WORD and evil comes out from God it come from the abundance of His heart. Thus God would not be holy, but rather just as stained as we are whne evil proceeds from our mouths.
Maybe I'm a little confused. God is not EVIL. But, he ALLOWED evil to enter the most pristine conditions for humans that ever existed. WHY?

God HATES evil. I don't believe that he wanted any of this to happen necessarily but, with foresight, he would KNOW, if we were given "free will," what would end up happening. Curious people would explore. He put us in a "controlled" place that He was STILL in charge of, and let us "play" it out.

We can ONLY understand our physical realm until something OPENS our eyes to something higher. We can make stuff up. We invent all kinds of stupid things, believe all kinds of myths, and go around destroying the planet.

But, you would have to allow some evil to exist, especially if you wanted the humans to HATE it. You have to let them go THROUGH it, make them taste it, and let them see it up close.

He is still in control of it all. The more you hate evil the more you become like him.

Last edited by herefornow; 06-18-2010 at 09:32 PM..
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
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Quote:
No one said God was evil!! God is nothing of the sort. God is not the things that He created.....He simply created sin and evil, that does not mean that's what He is! How can you deny the scriptures that say that very thing?



Ilene, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, and as God creates through His spoken word evil must be within His heart in order for Him to create it.



Quote:


What does that scripture have to do with God creating evil or sin?
All that scripture tells me is that God loves the righteous and the unrighteous.

Quote:



There is nothing evil in the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, we are to KNOW the difference from whence each comes.


Quote:
AND THE MOST TELLING SCRIPTURE OF ALL:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Yes that is a most telling scripture but.

The root of create means to cut down or cut out

That scripture should read

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God creates by His word

His word is a two edged sword used to divide one substance from another

David prayed create in me a clean heart

The creation of a clean heart is in reference to the circumcision of the heart

Circumcision is the CUTTING away of the foreskin

Quote:
You're reading something into God's character that just isn't there. He is not His creation....HE IS GOD.


Are you sure it is me that is reading into Gods character something that is not there?

Am I the one that is saying Gods character consists of EVIL and GOOD?

Donít listen to me sis, but listen to Jesus

A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, nor can an evil tree bring forth good fruit, either make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree evil and its fruit evil.

Those are Jesus word sis not mine, and He is telling us that it is impossible for God to bring forth evil.

Ilene if God created sin, then God and the devil are one and the same being, for scripture states sin is of the devil.

God said everything He created was GOOD, but like any fruit that FALLS from the vine becomes corrupted, so too does man when he falls away from God.

Jesus gave us a parable and in this parable, He said that God sowed GOOD seed in the earth, and an enemy came and sowed TARES among His WHEAT.

Jesus goes on to say the enemy that sowed the TARES was the devil.

When you guys state that God created evil and sin you are attributing to God the things of satan.

Ilene is not attributing the things of Satan to God blaspheme?

Tis why I suggested everyone take a step back and HEAR HIM/JESUS.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
Sin is missing the mark, not doing that which is right, and God is the standard of good. He created man with the ability to do that which goes against what He told us to do. I would not say that the Father created sin, but he created his creation capable of sinning and I would even go so far that by man's act of sinning, a greater good will...in the ultimate plan of God, result in the creation being LIKE God, made in His image, knowing good from evil. I suspect that there were no magical properties in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but merely by God telling Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the tree and they disobeyed.....that then they realized they were going to reap consequences for doing what they were told not to, and lived to see those results and how dire they were. And if they truly learned anything, they learned that the consequences were not near as bad as the fact that you betrayed a trust.
In order for God to create man in His image and likeness God had to give man a freewill, for as God is free, man to must be free in order to be like Him.

Was it the father of the prodigal son who was to blame for everything the prodigal went through because he gave His son his inheritance?
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
That's right - either we except that this was all in the plan, or we demote God to just a very powerful experimenter (and not really "God" as the term is generally defined).
Hardly, God gave temporary sovereignty over the earth to mankind when He said let them have DOMINION over the earth and all that is therein.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:27 PM
 
Location: 48205
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God is in control of all things.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Maybe I'm a little confused. God is not EVIL. But, he ALLOWED evil to enter the most pristine conditions for humans that ever existed. WHY?

God HATES evil. I don't believe that he wanted any of this to happen necessarily but, with foresight, he would KNOW, if we were given "free will," what would end up happening. Curious people would explore. He put us in a "controlled" place that He was STILL in charge of, and let us "play" it out.

We can ONLY understand our physical realm until something OPENS our eyes to something higher. We can make stuff up. We invent all kinds of stupid things, believe all kinds of myths, and go around destroying the planet.

But, you would have to allow some evil to exist, especially if you wanted the humans to HATE it. You have to let them go THROUGH it, make them taste it, and let them see it up close.

He is still in control of it all. The more you hate evil the more you become like him.


The problem with that scenario sis is, if God is the creator of evil and one is to learn to hate evil, then that leaves us with we are to learn to hate God.

In order for God to create man in His image and likeness God had to give man freewill, for, as He is free so to must man be free in order to obtain His image and likeness.

I donít believe God knew for a certainty that man would sin for that then bespeaks of God predestinating man to sin.

I believe God knew man MIGHT sin and therefore had already in place a plan for mans redemption if man used his freewill to sin.

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.


KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.


First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.

If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.

We see this very principal brought out in

1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.


God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.



Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

Why?

Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.

The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.


Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.

Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.

If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?

Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.


Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sinthou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.

Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in the need of sacrificing His son.

Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?

Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teejuris View Post
God is in control of all things.
Yah, thatís why Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said how I wanted to draw you under my wing, but you would not let me (paraphrased)
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Yah, that’s why Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said how I wanted to draw you under my wing, but you would not let me (paraphrased)
Well, what is wrong with allowing evil? That doesn't make God evil.

If I desperately want children, and I have them, and they run amok when they are older and end up in jail, that doesn't at ALL mean I wanted it to happen.

He wanted us to HATE evil. How are you going to make that happen?
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Well, what is wrong with allowing evil? That doesn't make God evil.

If I desperately want children, and I have them, and they run amok when they are older and end up in jail, that doesn't at ALL mean I wanted it to happen.

He wanted us to HATE evil. How are you going to make that happen?
sis that is not the contention here

Most are saying God created evil and some are saying God created evil and sin.

I also don't beleive God allows evil and sin, for it is because of evil and sin that man is judged.

If God allowed evil, He cannot then rightly judge us for the evil that we then do.
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