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Even if we take the view like Finn and others do that evil is an absence of good, darkness is an absence of light, etc, we are still left with the problem that it is God who removed (or allowed the removal of) the light/good. Who turned off the light switch in the universe? GOD.
Evil is absence of God, so when people reject God, the good becomes absent and evil fills the void. It happened to Israel all the time.
No, no, no.....evil does not have to be in His heart in order for Him to have created it. Good gracious, God in Holy! I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp for some people.
Hmmm I believe God is Holy sis, as a matter of fact everything I have posted shows God is Holy.
You say evil does not have to be in Gods heart in order for Him to create it; yet Jesus says
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
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Yes, I've seen others trying to explain away this scripture with the same "it doesn't mean what it says" argument. It says what it says, and it says that God created evil.
Ilene, this is the exact argument you use to use when speaking to Universalist when they told you that hell was not in the scriptures and eternal does not means eternal. You of all people here should know by now that argument holds no water.
Now Isaiah wrote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Yet Jesus said
A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit and we are to either make the tree good and its fruit good or we are to make the tree evil and its fruit evil.
So if we take those scriptures as they are written you have two options, you either believe Isaiah is correct in stating God created good and evil; or you believe Jesus, who said A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and we are to either make the tree good and its fruit good, or we are to make the tree evil and its fruit evil to be correct.
Both simply cannot be correct.
But, but, but, what if the translators were in error to use ra after this fashion, what if they had of translated ra to mean cut down or cut off (as cut down or cut off is in the root of the meaning of ra).
If the translator had of used ra after the fashion I contend for, that scripture then reads
I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So now, if we read that scripture and what Jesus said we have harmony throughout scripture and nothing more than a bad translation made by men of the word ra.
And like I said bad translations of the Hebrew and Greek you of all people here should be fully aware of by now.
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Yes because you are the one saying His "character" must be evil if He created evil, I have never said that and never will.
It is not me that said His character must be evil if He create evil; Jesus is the one who says it.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,neithercan a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Now I am the one here who is stating (Just as Jesus did) God is a GOOD tree therefore He CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit. You guys on the other had REFUSE to make the tree GOOD or EVIL; therefore, you guys are stating a GOOD tree can bring forth good and evil fruit, which is in total contradiction to what Jesus said.
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This is simply a parable about good and evil. Jesus was not talking about God, he was talking about man. Yes, the enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.....are you saying that the devil created evil? How is it that a being created by God could create anything?
Yes, it is a parable about good and evil and it states emphatically that the tares are of the devil. You on the other hand are stating God created the wheat and the tares, making tares of God, which is the same as saying God and the devil are the same being.
It is not me that is saying the devil created anything it is Jesus, tares are of the devil; sin is of the devil. Why oh why when Jesus declares this simple fact you think otherwise is beyond me. You need to stop listening to other people, be it Moses or Elijah and hear HIM.
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No, "we" are attributing ALL of creation to God, and you are saying He didn't create everything. It's a typical fundamentalist circular argument that says God is not in control or the Creator of ALL
God is not the creator of all, God is the creator of all that is GOOD ya very GOOD, He state this Himself.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it wasvery good
When God creates He creates only good as He is a good tree, but like any fruit when it falls from the vine becomes corrupt so too does man when he falls away from God.
Yes this is an important point. God is not evil by creating/allowing/purposing evil because His intent is GOOD and He will achieve His intent.
That is calling good evil and evil good and simply goes against what Jesus said leg. Hear Him again
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,neithercan a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Either make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree evil and its fruit evil for each tree can only bring forth of its own kind.
This is such a simple truth, yet for whatever reason people keep implying Jesus must be in error because they say God is good and God brings forth evil.
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Pneuma, IMHO your belief of free will is a stumbling block here. Free will: we don't have it. And we aren't robots either. We are beings that respond to our circumstances, desires, environment, and experiences.
Freewill is only a stumbling block to those who do not believe man has freewill.
Is God free?
Is man to be made in His image and likeness?
Can this be done without man also being free?
How can man have dominion (which denotes sovereignty) if man is not free to reign?
Freewill is not in itself responsible for evil and sin; but when one uses their freewill to join with the devil it works like in a marriage and they become one. This union then produces fruit after its kind, this is evil fruit.
When one freely joins with Christ they become one and produce fruit after its kind, this is good fruit.
Neither God nor Satan rape mankind they entice them, God through LOVE, Satan through LUST of the flesh. Satan has NO power over man except by what they freely give unto him.
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God has knowledge of evil (and good). God is giving us the knowledge of evil (and good) so we will understand and be like Him (ie. hate evil). None of these things make God evil. They in fact make Him good.
Leg, the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil does not only come through disobedience unto sin, but it also comes through obedience. Jesus never wallowed in sin the way we do and He most assuredly had full knowledge of good and evil. Thus, knowledge comes through obedience and disobedience. But what you are saying is that man had to wallow in evil and sin in order to learn the difference between good and evil and to hate evil. But that just is not the truth of the matter and Jesus proved this fact most emphatically.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Jesus said
A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit and we are to either make the tree good and its fruit good or we are to make the tree evil and its fruit evil..
Also
Matthew 15:13 He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
Those plants Jesus talks about are things not of God, and were planted by evil. God did not plant them.
Why do we have knives in our kitchen drawers? Seems plain to see that God can have instruments that - despite their reputation as being harmful - can actually be used for good in the hands of a skilled Technician...
...and boy, is He ever skilled.
Why can't we see that we have "things" in us that must be done away with (actually, it's the entire flesh that must die), and God uses "the waster to destroy"? We need to keep our eyes on the Author of creation, and realize that He's working in the darkness to bring forth glorious light, both individually in us and in the earth as a whole.
To be distracted as we are with the devil, evil, demons, darkness, sin - all these become larger in our eyes than God Himself. We can say, "No, we're supposed be wary of such things!" But the antidote to darkness is light - Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
What we focus on, we become.
In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present.
Septuagint
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?
We we NOT created for ruin that we should be destroyed; yet what people on this thread are saying is that we were created for ruin that we might be destroyed because God planned it all out that way. Yet this scripture tells a totally different view then what most have posted here in this thread.
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
Why do we have knives in our kitchen drawers? Seems plain to see that God can have instruments that - despite their reputation as being harmful - can actually be used for good in the hands of a skilled Technician...
That analogy falls a little flat LE, for a good physician only uses their knives to cut away the cancer, not to first give the cancer in order to cut it away.
That analogy falls a little flat LE, for a good physician only uses their knives to cut away the cancer, not to first give the cancer in order to cut it away.
Your physician did not create patients of honor and dishonor; your physician did not create the heart in man; your physician does not have the power to circumcise the heart...
Your physician does not raise the dead - he doesn't kill in order to make alive.
Your physician doesn't know his patients before they are born - he didn't create them in the womb.
Can your physician do all things, and no purpose of his be thwarted? Will all the ends of the earth remember and turn to your physician? Will all the earth worship him? Is your physician good to all, and his mercies over all his works?
The mind of man plans his ways, but does your physician direct his steps? Do fire, hail, snow, clouds and stormy winds fulfill your physician's words?
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