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Most are saying God created evil and some are saying God created evil and sin.
I also don't beleive God allows evil and sin, for it is because of evil and sin that man is judged.
If God allowed evil, He cannot then rightly judge us for the evil that we then do.
We were made in futility, though. I believe that he DID know we were going to foul things up. Jesus was sacrificed from the FOUNDATION of the world. I'm not saying God is a psychopath or anything.
A psychopath ENJOYS his evil!
God weeps.
But, he did give us dominion, and again, he ALLOWS a LOT of nonsense down
here, but, isn't that the point?
How is he going to make us HATE evil as much as he does? He knows what we are capable of.
We were made in futility, though. I believe that he DID know we were going to foul things up. Jesus was sacrificed from the FOUNDATION of the world. I'm not saying God is a psychopath or anything.
A psychopath ENJOYS his evil!
God weeps.
But, he did give us dominion, and again, he ALLOWS a LOT of nonsense down
here, but, isn't that the point?
How is he going to make us HATE evil as much as he does? He knows what we are capable of.
Sis when were we made in futility? was it before or after disobedience?
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is this scripture really saying?
Is it talking about the foundation of the old world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?
If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?
If He was slain from the foundation of the old world why do the scripture say:
Hebrews 9:25-26
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
But NOW ONCE in the end of the WORLD/AGE He appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of HIMSELF.
If Christ was sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world then sin was already put away and He would not have had to come in the END of the world/age.
Rev.13:8 is not talking about Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world, it is talking about Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
This is brought out more fully when we read 1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordainedbefore the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
If He was already sacrificed/slain then it would not say He was foreordained to be sacrificed/slain in the last times for us.
Jesus Christ is our foundation, and not only our foundation, but also the capstone on which the foundation is laid.
Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Rev.13:8 is speaking of Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD and that foundation was laid 2000 years ago when He was sacrificed/slain and access to the kingdom of heaven was given unto men through Him.
The scriptures state while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
Sis when were we made in futility? was it before or after disobedience?
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is this scripture really saying?
Is it talking about the foundation of the foundation of the world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?
If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?
If He was slain from the foundation of the old world why do the scripture say:
Hebrews 9:25-26
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
But NOW ONCE in the end of the WORLD/AGE He appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of HIMSELF.
If Christ was sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world then sin was already put away and He would not have had to come in the END of the world/age.
Rev.13:8 is not talking about Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world, it is talking about Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
This is brought out more fully when we read 1 Peter 1:20
[color=black]1 Peter 1:20[/COLOR
20 Who verily was foreordainedbefore the foundation of the world, but was manifest in
these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before
the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
If He was already sacrificed/slain then it would not say He was foreordained to be sacrificed/slain in the last times for us.
Jesus Christ is our foundation, and not only our foundation, but also the capstone on which the foundation is laid.
Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Rev.13:8 is speaking of Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD and that foundation was laid 2000 years ago when He was sacrificed/slain and access to the kingdom of heaven was given unto men through Him.
The scriptures state while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we
were sinners.
God bless
Hmmmm.......I'm gonna have to think about that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Does God hate evil? did God have to experience
evil in order to hate it?
Ilene, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, and as God creates through His spoken word evil must be within His heart in order for Him to create it.
No, no, no.....evil does not have to be in His heart in order for Him to have created it. Good gracious, God in Holy! I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp for some people.
Quote:
What does that scripture have to do with God creating evil or sin?
All that scripture tells me is that God loves the righteous and the unrighteous.
It shows that He ALLOWS for evil to exist and yes, that He loves the righteous and the unrighteous.
Quote:
There is nothing evil in the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, we are to KNOW the difference from whence each comes.
Yes, I agree with that.
Quote:
Yes that is a most telling scripture but.
The root of create means to cut down or cut out
That scripture should read
I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut downevil: I the LORD do all these things.
God creates by His word
His word is a two edged sword used to divide one substance from another
David prayed create in me a clean heart
The creation of a clean heart is in reference to the circumcision of the heart
Circumcision is the CUTTING away of the foreskin
Yes, I've seen others trying to explain away this scripture with the same "it doesn't mean what it says" argument. It says what it says, and it says that God created evil.
Quote:
Are you sure it is me that is reading into Gods character something that is not there?
Yes because you are the one saying His "character" must be evil if He created evil, I have never said that and never will.
Quote:
Am I the one that is saying Gods character consists of EVIL and GOOD?
Yep, you....not me.
Quote:
Don’t listen to me sis, but listen to Jesus
A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, nor can an evil tree bring forth good fruit, either make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree evil and its fruit evil.
Those are Jesus word sis not mine, and He is telling us that it is impossible for God to bring forth evil.
Ilene if God created sin, then God and the devil are one and the same being, for scripture states sin is of the devil.
God said everything He created was GOOD, but like any fruit that FALLS from the vine becomes corrupted, so too does man when he falls away from God.
Jesus gave us a parable and in this parable, He said that God sowed GOOD seed in the earth, and an enemy came and sowed TARES among His WHEAT.
Jesus goes on to say the enemy that sowed the TARES was the devil.
This is simply a parable about good and evil. Jesus was not talking about God, he was talking about man. Yes, the enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.....are you saying that the devil created evil? How is it that a being created by God could create anything?
Quote:
When you guys state that God created evil and sin you are attributing to God the things of satan.
Ilene is not attributing the things of Satan to God blaspheme?
Tis why I suggested everyone take a step back and HEAR HIM/JESUS.
No, "we" are attributing ALL of creation to God, and you are saying He didn't create everything. It's a typical fundamentalist circular argument that says God is not in control or the Creator of ALL.
Yes because you are the one saying His "character" must be evil if He created evil, I have never said that and never will.
Yes this is an important point. God is not evil by creating/allowing/purposing evil because His intent is GOOD and He will achieve His intent.
Even if we take the view like Finn and others do that evil is an absence of good, darkness is an absence of light, etc, we are still left with the problem that it is God who removed (or allowed the removal of) the light/good. Who turned off the light switch in the universe? GOD. So in that sense God is still the first cause of why there is darkness and evil in the universe. Yet it will not be permanently this way. God will turn the light switch back on and then all will understand why the light switch had to be turned off in the first place.
Pneuma, IMHO your belief of free will is a stumbling block here. Free will: we don't have it. And we aren't robots either. We are beings that respond to our circumstances, desires, environment, and experiences.
Does God hate evil? did God have to experience evil in order to hate it?
God has knowledge of evil (and good). God is giving us the knowledge of evil (and good) so we will understand and be like Him (ie. hate evil). None of these things make God evil. They in fact make Him good.
Yes this is an important point. God is not evil by creating/allowing/purposing evil because His intent is GOOD and He will achieve His intent.
Even if we take the view like Finn and others do that evil is an absence of good, darkness is an absence of light, etc, we are still left with the problem that it is God who removed (or allowed the removal of) the light/good. Who turned off the light switch in the universe? GOD. So in that sense God is still the first cause of why there is darkness and evil in the universe. Yet it will not be permanently this way. God will turn the light switch back on and then all will understand why the light switch had to be turned off in the first place.
Pneuma, IMHO your belief of free will is a stumbling block here. Free will: we don't have it. And we aren't robots either. We are beings that respond to our circumstances, desires, environment, and experiences.
Absolutely!! When the switch in turned back on all will understand. God WILL achieve His intent.
Why do we have knives in our kitchen drawers? Seems plain to see that God can have instruments that - despite their reputation as being harmful - can actually be used for good in the hands of a skilled Technician...
...and boy, is He ever skilled.
Why can't we see that we have "things" in us that must be done away with (actually, it's the entire flesh that must die), and God uses "the waster to destroy"? We need to keep our eyes on the Author of creation, and realize that He's working in the darkness to bring forth glorious light, both individually in us and in the earth as a whole.
To be distracted as we are with the devil, evil, demons, darkness, sin - all these become larger in our eyes than God Himself. We can say, "No, we're supposed be wary of such things!" But the antidote to darkness is light - Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
In order for God to create man in His image and likeness God had to give man a freewill, for as God is free, man to must be free in order to be like Him.
Yes, God wants us to love Him out of our free will, and this is why He did not create us to worship him like robots.
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When the switch in turned back on all will understand. God WILL achieve His intent.
