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Old 06-19-2010, 02:52 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
It's scary when you find out you have absolutely NO control over the universe.
Oh Yes!....When I went through this conversion. I was totally seeing TWO within me.

A lower spirit saying things like "Man, if I am going to be saved eventually, I can sin all I want". I was pleagued by many of the questions that all have been asking us. I totally despised this teaching. I wanted to keep control of my own destiny. I Questioned the Potter on many MANY things.

And a Higher Spirit that was saying to the Lower Spirit..."You will die, so that I can have control". And I have been "dying" ever since. We truly are POTS.

This was truly a struggle within me. There are still things I struggle with.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,122,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

You would think the pot is molding the potter...
A JW once replied, "yes, we're the clay, but we have to make ourselves moldable!!!"

I agree with you and Joeallcomm that the notion of "free will" is a deception. It is a belief held to even by most unbelievers. Even atheists tout free will! It is very well rooted in modern society, both inside and outside church groups.

The notion of God being the One who controls our lives is scary, but if we are trusting in Him, it is where we find Life! The world wants to remain "free"--- until God truly frees them!
HE is the MASTER!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,388,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
A JW once replied, "yes, we're the clay, but we have to make ourselves moldable!!!"

I agree with you and Joeallcomm that the notion of "free will" is a deception. It is a belief held to even by most unbelievers. Even atheists tout free will! It is very well rooted in modern society, both inside and outside church groups.

The notion of God being the One who controls our lives is scary, but if we are trusting in Him, it is where we find Life! The world wants to remain "free"--- until God truly frees them!
HE is the MASTER!

Blessings,
brian

Good point.

I know the U.S. was founded on that principle. FREEDOM. Lady LIBERTY. Free will. Humanism.

Look where that got us.......

I figure the only reason the churches are on every corner is because they KNEW what would happen if they didn't have some sort of moral structure in place. They don't really BELIEVE in CHRIST, do they! Now we have LAWS and RESTRICTIONS and PRISONS and MENTAL hospitals up the you-know-what.

What DO they believe in?

Last edited by herefornow; 06-19-2010 at 03:20 PM..
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:21 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,805 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Good point.

I know the U.S. was founded on that principle. FREEDOM. Lady LIBERTY. Free will. Humanism.

Look where that got us.......

I figure the only reason the churches are on every corner is because they KNEW what would happen if they didn't have some sort of moral structure in place. They don't really BELIEVE in the POWER, now do they! He is on their lips, but...........
(I know this is getting off the OP) But yes...this has been a problem since the foundation of our nation. A while back, I was studying the 10 Commandments. I had found (didnt really finish the study on it though, so I may by wrong), that there were 10 that God Spoke (to ALL the Israelites), Wrote (with His own finger) on a tablet Hewn NOT by Man, and then there are the 10 that were Spoke, Written on a tablet Hewn By Man, by Moses himself. It is evident that the first 10 were BROKEN by man BEFORE all the 'doing...doing' statutes were given (for God added NO MORE). I believe that there are 2 speaking. The words of God and the words of Man. So the will of man that hears Man's words will be blinded from even knowing God's words.

Freedom and Liberty is a good thing, but most have been given the 'blindness' that Man himself is the one who creates it by his own 'doings'.

There has not been a society YET that has NOT failed by the very wisdom of Man.
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,388,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
(I know this is getting off the OP) But yes...this has been a problem since the foundation of our nation. A while back, I was studying the 10 Commandments. I had found (didnt really finish the study on it though, so I may by wrong), that there were 10 that God Spoke (to ALL the Israelites), Wrote (with His own finger) on a tablet Hewn NOT by Man, and then there are the 10 that were Spoke, Written on a tablet Hewn By Man, by Moses himself. It is evident that the first 10 were BROKEN by man BEFORE all the 'doing...doing' statutes were given (for God added NO MORE). I believe that there are 2 speaking. The words of God and the words of Man. So the will of man that hears Man's words will be blinded from even knowing God's words.

Freedom and Liberty is a good thing, but most have been given the 'blindness' that Man himself is the one who creates it by his own 'doings'.

There has not been a society YET that has NOT failed by the very wisdom of Man.

To the above in green, YES! And, YES to the above in blue.

I guess we are off topic, but I believe in UR precisely BECAUSE I found out that "Christians" don't REALLY believe. That is why started studying The Restoration of ALL. I was wondering, "WHO then can be saved?"

My heart was breaking in a million pieces. Everywhere I looked I found some sliver of truth, but when I delved deeper into whatever the groups, churches, or people were preaching it fell apart.
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:49 PM
 
20,331 posts, read 15,709,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
"Free will" only exists when God OPENS eyes and ears. Otherwise, they stay shut. The ELECT, remember? If you have been elected and you UNDERSTAND the mystery and yet you run around doing evil and won't run the race you are under wrath.

The rest of the world will be brought in by the ELECT. Don't you know that you will judge the world?

Anyhow, your posts reek of arrogance and rebellion. They are not too harsh for us. It's kind of hard to have a conversation with you when the only people you listen to is yourself and Scofield.

I don't know if I have read even ONE of your posts that sounds like it comes from the heart; a human heart, that is.

When does the Holy Spirit come into play in your posts?

Love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, peace, patience.
To the contrary. My posts stand on the truth of the word of God. You may therefore wish to avoid my posts.

Free will exists, period. God gives the call through the Gospel (2 Thess. 2:14) and the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer. The hearer must make a decision 'yes' or 'no'. He must make that decision at some point before he dies. God will bring about circumstances that will encourage the person to believe. He will not however MAKE the person believe. That is up to the person.
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,388,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. My posts stand on the truth of the word of God. You may therefore wish to avoid my posts.

Free will exists, period. God gives the call through the Gospel (2 Thess. 2:14) and the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer. The hearer must make a decision 'yes' or 'no'. He must make that decision at some point before he dies. God will bring about circumstances that will encourage the person to believe. He will not however MAKE the person believe. That is up to the person.
He DOES make people believe, Mike. And those verses have been shown over and over to you.

So, you don't believe in the elect? If you are ELECTED, what does that mean? And what happens to those that SEE and UNDERSTAND (elect) the powers in the world to come and turn back to evil?

Were the other nations around Israel elect?

Last edited by herefornow; 06-19-2010 at 04:20 PM..
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:17 PM
 
20,331 posts, read 15,709,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Sir Mike, you say, "John 15:16 refers to the FACT that Jesus chose the 12 as His disciples." (emph. mine).

Exactly my point in saying 'they did NOT choose Him'. Maybe your getting it now. But when you say...

"God calls all...." THEN "He chooses all who answer the call" (emph.mine)

In saying this, you have (unknowingly) turned Jn 15:16 BACK into saying "if you answer MY CALL, then I will CHOOSE you". You are stating that Jn 15:16 is ONLY talking to the disciple during THAT moment and THAT time. I am sorry, but His words "Ye have NOT chosen me,..." is just as true today as it was back then, as with this scripture...
You certainly are sorry. For you deliberately ignore what I said immediately after that. Which was this...''Now, apart from that passage, God calls all through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14) and He chooses all who answer the call through positive volition toward the Gospel.'' Post #82.

You leave that out and then go off on an arguement that is completely unfounded.

Quote:
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen (again, this God doing the calling AND the choosing, NOT man).

As pertaining to the link you sent me. I am understanding why you think in such a way. I think I have explained this to you before, but I will stated it again.

ALL through scripture, MAN is given a CHOICE, to choose this or that. What I am trying to get accross, is that NOT ONE has chosen God UNLESS God touched them FIRST. They ALL chose the bad. The ONLY ones who chose the Good, were the ones that God "moved" to do so (therefore it being HIS doing on NOT theirs). I dont believe you are seeing this fact in the scriptures. You stated this though, to little elmer....

God allows man to exercise free will. That in no way implies that God doesn't sometimes overrule man's free will with regard to certain things. However, God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior. (emph. mine)

You are "absolutely, undoubtedly, CORRECT" in the FACT that God gives man a CHOICE. And this what I see in the scriptures you provide me.

But, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE (biblically, philisophically, and scientifically) that MAN can make an "UNCAUSED" choice. In other words, there is ALWAYS something that guides (forces if you will) man to choose this or that. Man's nature is that of a sinner, therefore, without God, he chooses sin.

God makes the one's who do not hear Him "deaf". The one's that don't see Him "blind". They dont 'become' blind or deaf, God made them this way FIRST, and THEN He opens the ears and eyes of the the one's He chooses to see and hear it.

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

And when you say...

"God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior." (emph. mine)

I dont see how you can say that God cannot do such things when He, Himself, blinded Israel.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should no hear unto this day.

They are not blinded because they did not choose Him. God did not choose Israel because they made 'good' choices Mike. This is evident throughout all the scriptures.
God has made Himself known to all. The universe and nature declare His existence. He has more specifically revealed Himself through the prophets of old, and through the Gospel. The hearer of the Gospel then must decide for or against Christ. You have understood nothing of what I have said. I know far better than you what is involved in the issue of man's free will with regard to salvation. You people who deny man's free will give it a meaning that isn't warranted and then argue against the false meaning you yourself have given it.

God reveals Himself and man answers yes or no. It is that simple.

And God sends delusion on those who have already rejected the truth. To those who reject the truth, God allows them to become even more hardened against the truth.

Regarding Israel, they were given a chance to recieve Christ as the Messiah. They rejected Him. As a result, as a part of their national discipline, they are under a partial hardening of the heart until the end of the Tribulation when they will turn back to God. Israel had always been a rebellious lot over most of their history. It need not have been so, but it was. And God worked with that. God uses man's free will to His own glory. That does not nullify the reality of man's free will. It means that God fulfills His purpose using man's free will.
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,388,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You certainly are sorry. For you deliberately ignore what I said immediately after that. Which was this...''Now, apart from that passage, God calls all through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14) and He chooses all who answer the call through positive volition toward the Gospel.'' Post #82.

You leave that out and then go off on an arguement that is completely unfounded.



God has made Himself known to all. The universe and nature declare His existence. He has more specifically revealed Himself through the prophets of old, and through the Gospel. The hearer of the Gospel then must decide for or against Christ. You have understood nothing of what I have said. I know far better than you what is involved in the issue of man's free will with regard to salvation. You people who deny man's free will give it a meaning that isn't warranted and then argue against the false meaning you yourself have given it.

God reveals Himself and man answers yes or no. It is that simple.

And God sends delusion on those who have already rejected the truth. To those who reject the truth, God allows them to become even more hardened against the truth.

Regarding Israel, they were given a chance to recieve Christ as the Messiah. They rejected Him. As a result, as a part of their national discipline, they are under a partial hardening of the heart until the end of the Tribulation when they will turn back to God. Israel had always been a rebellious lot over most of their history. It need not have been so, but it was. And God worked with that. God uses man's free will to His own glory. That does not nullify the reality of man's free will. It means that God fulfills His purpose using man's free will.
Why do you argue against scripture? Be careful........

WHAT did Jesus say to his father when he was on the cross?

(and, Mike, I USED to be a hardened individual. No more. )
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:29 PM
 
20,331 posts, read 15,709,470 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
He DOES make people believe, Mike. And those verses have been shown over and over to you.

So, you don't believe in the elect? If you are ELECTED, what does that mean? And what happens to those that SEE and UNDERSTAND (the elect) the powers to come and turn back to evil?

Were the other nations around Israel elect?

God does not make ANYONE believe. You want to understand what election is? Here you go...


Election pertains to Three different things.

1) The election of Christ. 2) the election of Israel. 3) the election of the believer.

The election of the believer refers to the fact that he is elected to equal privilege and equal opportunity. A person doesn't believe because he is elected. He is elected because he has believed.

Now, I will direct you to the site of one of my pastor/teachers concerning the meanng of election and predestination.

Election is for Believers Only - God Never Elected Anyone to Hell... Junior Trees - Prep School - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

Read it or don't read it. Your choice.
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