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Old 06-19-2010, 04:12 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
I ignored no thing Mike, you SEE 2Th 2:14 but you don't see (rather blinded to seeing) vs 13.

2Th 2:13 ......God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And with in respect of ALL that you have written after this, you have AGAIN, with man's reason (which you listen to), effectively made this verse...

"you have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you"

into this for all to see....

"you HAVE chosen me, therefore I will chose you"

You are telling us that this ONE verse means absolutely nothing to people today. This is ONE verse out of many Mike. We have MANY other verses to discuss. And for God NOT causing (making) people do things, this goes against scripture sir.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE (research the meaning of this word Mike) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Yet another scripture for us to discuss. Still have many more...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do you understand what I have said below? Already said twice now.


Now, apart from that passage, God calls all through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14) and He chooses all who answer the call through positive volition toward the Gospel. It is clear, there is no misunderstanding what I said. Yet you persist in denying what I said.

God calls all through the Gospel. He then chooses anyone who answers the call. It is not hard to understand.



But John 15:16 is talking about the fact that Jesus appointed the twelve as His disciples. I already gave the comparison verses to substantiate that. Here they are again. Luke 6:13; Mt. 10:2-4; Mk. 3:13-19; John 6:70; John 13:18.

Do you get it now?
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:17 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,415,028 times
Reputation: 5146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Foolish thinking. Free will with regard to the Gospel is simply 'yes' or 'no'.

Acts. 16:30 ...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'' [31] And they said, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...

Free will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
I ignored no thing Mike, you SEE 2Th 2:14 but you don't see (rather blinded to seeing) vs 13.

2Th 2:13 ......God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And with in respect of ALL that you have written after this, you have AGAIN, with man's reason (which you listen to), effectively made this verse...

"you have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you"

into this for all to see....

"you HAVE chosen me, therefore I will chose you"

You are telling us that this ONE verse means absolutely nothing to people today. This is ONE verse out of many Mike. We have MANY other verses to discuss. And for God NOT causing (making) people do things, this goes against scripture sir.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE (research the meaning of this word Mike) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Yet another scripture for us to discuss. Still have many more...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All right. How about keeping this thread on topic. That means no more questions about free will, or election, or predestination. You know what the thread is about. If you can't keep to it then stay off the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Do you want me to tell the mods to delete your posts, then?

The subject of "free will" is tightly connected to the Restoration of All Things, by the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I don't think I will read it. You don't listen to a word anyone else says, so.........

You really need to start thinking on your own. Use the Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Then remain in ignorance of the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
You, too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Uuuh...No...It is a CHOICE Mike, this is NOT the definition of 'freewill'. Lookup the defintion. This 'choice' is exactly what has been posed all throughout the bible. The question is ...

APART from the help of GOD, WHAT DID THEY CHOOSE?

Nobody is saying they didn't have a choice...geesh
Lest we forget that contention is not productive to the spirit. SHARING must be motivated by "LOVE" not PRIDE...

KNOW THE TREE BY IT'S FRUIT...Jesus says!
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Lest we forget that contention is not productive to the spirit. SHARING must be motivated by "LOVE" not PRIDE...

KNOW THE TREE BY IT'S FRUIT...Jesus says!



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Old 06-19-2010, 05:02 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Lest we forget that contention is not productive to the spirit. SHARING must be motivated by "LOVE" not PRIDE...

KNOW THE TREE BY IT'S FRUIT...Jesus says!
I am motivated by love of the truth. Those who don't like the way I present the truth are welcome to stay away from my threads.
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I am motivated by love of the truth. Those who don't like the way I present the truth are welcome to stay away from my threads.
I am ALSO motivated by the love of truth. And, BOY, am I ever motivated!

What kind of fruit are we producing???
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:08 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,097 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Do you understand what I have said below? Already said twice now.


Now, apart from that passage, God calls all through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14) and He chooses all who answer the call through positive volition toward the Gospel. It is clear, there is no misunderstanding what I said. Yet you persist in denying what I said.

God calls all through the Gospel. He then chooses anyone who answers the call. It is not hard to understand.



But John 15:16 is talking about the fact that Jesus appointed the twelve as His disciples. I already gave the comparison verses to substantiate that. Here they are again. Luke 6:13; Mt. 10:2-4; Mk. 3:13-19; John 6:70; John 13:18.

Do you get it now?
Mike...tell me if I am wrong here, maybe I am misuderstanding you, because this is what I am SEEING you saying "and He chooses all who answer the call (in other words those who have CHOSEN Him FIRST!!) through positive volition toward the Gospel. (emph. mine)

Are you equating those who "answer the call" to those "who chose Christ"?

The disciples denied Him Mike, they ALL forsook Him. Im sorry, but this is NOT Choosing or 'answering the call' of Christ, this is denying Him. For as the bible says...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

But you are saying that Man can DO the total opposite of what these scriptures are saying. If God does not open the eyes of a man FIRST, how is He to believe Him? If He does not open the ears of a man FIRST, how is He to believe what He says.

What you are saying is that man's 'freewill' determines his destiny, and that God WILL NOT do anything about it. But the scriptures say...

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, BUT the LORD determines his steps.

You are saying that a man's 'freewill' can CHOOSE evil OR good, but the scriptures tell us what man is 'accustomed' to do.

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." (you are saying we CAN)

You are saying that God cannot DECIEVE "YOU" into believing what you are believing. But....

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and ..

It is as true TODAY as it was back then when Christ said.

Mat 13:11 ......it is given unto you (his chosen) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (mainstream Christianity) it is not given.

This was said BEFORE they were converted. It was stated they would KNOW these things (in the future, Pentecost) BEFORE they truely believed Him. They are NOT finding it because they searched it out or found it by using and excercising man's 'freewill'. It is GIVEN to them by God. One moment Saul did NOT BELIEVE in the true Jesus, then in a SPLIT SECOND Paul BELIEVED in Jesus. This was ALL of Jesus, it had NOTHING to do with what Paul did. It was the DOING of Christ that brought Paul to BELIEF. Not the other way around. The very MEETING OF ME AND YOU is OF GOD HIMSELF Mike.

As you say "Do you get it now?"


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Old 06-19-2010, 05:18 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,415,028 times
Reputation: 5146
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Lest we forget that contention is not productive to the spirit. SHARING must be motivated by "LOVE" not PRIDE...

KNOW THE TREE BY IT'S FRUIT...Jesus says!
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I am ALSO motivated by the love of truth. And, BOY, am I ever motivated!

What kind of fruit are we producing???
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Mike...tell me if I am wrong here, maybe I am misuderstanding you, because this is what I am SEEING you saying "and He chooses all who answer the call (in other words those who have CHOSEN Him FIRST!!) through positive volition toward the Gospel. (emph. mine)

Are you equating those who "answer the call" to those "who chose Christ"?

The disciples denied Him Mike, they ALL forsook Him. Im sorry, but this is NOT Choosing or 'answering the call' of Christ, this is denying Him. For as the bible says...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

But you are saying that Man can DO the total opposite of what these scriptures are saying. If God does not open the eyes of a man FIRST, how is He to believe Him? If He does not open the ears of a man FIRST, how is He to believe what He says.

What you are saying is that man's 'freewill' determines his destiny, and that God WILL NOT do anything about it. But the scriptures say...

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, BUT the LORD determines his steps.

You are saying that a man's 'freewill' can CHOOSE evil OR good, but the scriptures tell us what man is 'accustomed' to do.

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." (you are saying we CAN)

You are saying that God cannot DECIEVE "YOU" into believing what you are believing. But....

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and ..

It is as true TODAY as it was back then when Christ said.

Mat 13:11 ......it is given unto you (his chosen) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (mainstream Christianity) it is not given.

This was said BEFORE they were converted. It was stated they would KNOW these things (in the future, Pentecost) BEFORE they truely believed Him. They are NOT finding it because they searched it out or found it by using and excercising man's 'freewill'. It is GIVEN to them by God. One moment Saul did NOT BELIEVE in the true Jesus, then in a SPLIT SECOND Paul BELIEVED in Jesus. This was ALL of Jesus, it had NOTHING to do with what Paul did. It was the DOING of Christ that brought Paul to BELIEF. Not the other way around. The very MEETING OF ME AND YOU is OF GOD HIMSELF Mike.

As you say "Do you get it now?"

"LOVE GOD WITH ALL THAT YOU ARE AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"

This is the good fruit that identifies the tree! Let's keep this in our hearts...then carry on!
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Old 06-19-2010, 06:12 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Mike...tell me if I am wrong here, maybe I am misuderstanding you, because this is what I am SEEING you saying "and He chooses all who answer the call (in other words those who have CHOSEN Him FIRST!!) through positive volition toward the Gospel. (emph. mine)

Are you equating those who "answer the call" to those "who chose Christ"?

The disciples denied Him Mike, they ALL forsook Him. Im sorry, but this is NOT Choosing or 'answering the call' of Christ, this is denying Him. For as the bible says...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

But you are saying that Man can DO the total opposite of what these scriptures are saying. If God does not open the eyes of a man FIRST, how is He to believe Him? If He does not open the ears of a man FIRST, how is He to believe what He says.

What you are saying is that man's 'freewill' determines his destiny, and that God WILL NOT do anything about it. But the scriptures say...

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, BUT the LORD determines his steps.

You are saying that a man's 'freewill' can CHOOSE evil OR good, but the scriptures tell us what man is 'accustomed' to do.

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." (you are saying we CAN)

You are saying that God cannot DECIEVE "YOU" into believing what you are believing. But....

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and ..

It is as true TODAY as it was back then when Christ said.

Mat 13:11 ......it is given unto you (his chosen) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (mainstream Christianity) it is not given.

This was said BEFORE they were converted. It was stated they would KNOW these things (in the future, Pentecost) BEFORE they truely believed Him. They are NOT finding it because they searched it out or found it by using and excercising man's 'freewill'. It is GIVEN to them by God. One moment Saul did NOT BELIEVE in the true Jesus, then in a SPLIT SECOND Paul BELIEVED in Jesus. This was ALL of Jesus, it had NOTHING to do with what Paul did. It was the DOING of Christ that brought Paul to BELIEF. Not the other way around. The very MEETING OF ME AND YOU is OF GOD HIMSELF Mike.

As you say "Do you get it now?"

Follow along now. I will try not to lose you. It is real simple. Here we go.

God has provided the Gospel. When the Gospel is presented to the hearer who is an unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel perspicacious to that unbeliever. The Gospel is spiritual phenomenon and is not understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever. Therefore, the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever. This is God calling through the Gospel as per 2 Thess. 2:14. Now, if upon understanding the Gospel message which has been presented to him, the hearer responds to the Gospel with positive volition, then in His ministry of effacacious grace, the Holy Spirit takes the faith which has been exercised by the hearer (NO THAT IS NOT WORKS-Eph. 2:8,9), and He carries that faith to the point of salvation. He makes the faith effective for salvation.

There is no merit in the faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. The faith is simply the means by which the work of Christ on the Cross is appropriated by the one who believes.

Now, we know that God desires that all men be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4. We also know that not everyone is saved even though God desires everyone to be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, ''I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.'' [20] Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [4} in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. (Satan deceives through his cosmic system. His doctrines of demons. People who aren't interested in the truth will be suckers for the cosmic doctrines that are rampant in the world.)

[6] For God, who said, ''Light shall shine out of darkness,'' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

God has revealed Himself. He calls through the Gospel. Now each individual must choose for or against the message of the Gospel. God desires for all men to be saved. He calls out through the Gospel which is made understandable by the Holy Spirit. God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, choose to answer the call of the Gospel. God calls. Man answers 'yes' or 'no'. Of his own free will, based on his understanding of the facts.

People really try to complicate what is in fact very simple. Man's free will co-exists along with God's sovereign will, by God's sovereign will. God's sovereign will operates within the areas of 1) His directive will; 2) His overruling will; and 3) His permissive will. God allows man to have and to use free will. There are times when God overrules man's free will. But never in the case of individual salvation. That would violate God's very reason for creating man in the first place.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:49 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,097 times
Reputation: 60
My comments and EMPH. in RED Mike. See if you have not lost yourself with your own reasoning.

[quote=Mike555;14688798]Follow along now. I will try not to lose you. It is real simple. Here we go.

God has provided the Gospel. When the Gospel is presented to the hearer who is an unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel perspicacious to that unbeliever (yep...the Spirit makes/causes them to percieve and understand these things, NOT man by his 'freewill', this is the HELP from God I am talking about). The Gospel is spiritual phenomenon and is not understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever (100% correct...some are not GIVEN the "ears to hear" and some are not. Mat 3:9+11). Therefore, the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever (makes understandable 'some' yes Matt 3:9+11, but not all. Again this is the Spirit doing this NOT freewill of man. And Correct me if I am wrong here Mike, but for those who do not know, the doctine of "COMMON GRACE" basically states a certain GRACE that was bestowed upon ALL CREATION whether righteous and unrighteous....example being the sun rising upon both, the gifts of children to both, rains upon both. The Preached Gospel may be of 'common grace" as you say, but these mysterious 'understandings' are NOT "commonly" GIVEN BY GOD to all are they? As scripture states) This is God calling through the Gospel as per 2 Thess. 2:14. Now, if upon understanding ('the understanding' GIVEN to him BY GOD that is) the Gospel message (understanding) which has been presented to him, the hearer responds (and no question he WILL respond, there is no 'if' about it, because this is where 'efficacious grace' or 'irrestistable grace' comes into play. NOT AFTER the man chooses. This grace will 'cause' him to choose God) to the Gospel with positive volition, then in His ministry of effacacious grace, the Holy Spirit takes the faith which has been exercised by the hearer (NO THAT IS NOT WORKS-Eph. 2:8,9) (Absolutely correct, it is NOT works, because the FAITH is a 'gift of God'. See the greek. The word 'that' in Eph. 2:8 points to the word 'faith', so 'that faith' is NOT of yourselves, it is a 'gift of God'. Therefore, a man's very belief is a 'gift from God'. Because if it was of man, he could boast that 'HE' believed by his own freewill, which would be works), and He carries that faith to the point of salvation. He makes the faith effective for salvation.

There is no merit in the faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. The faith is simply the means by which the work of Christ on the Cross is appropriated by the one who believes.

Now, we (this is Mike speaking not I) know that God desires (desires of an Almighty God are apparently mere manly 'weak wishes'. Obviously, we are to believe that Christ is NOT able to quicken 'whom he will/desires', given Mike's understanding of this Greek word 'thelo'. Jn 5:21) that all men be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4. We also know that not everyone is saved even though God desires everyone to be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing (Gk: apollumi) foolishness (yes, he will seek and saved the 'apollumi' as well Mat 18:11, Luke 19:10), but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, ''I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.'' [20] Where is the wise man?(I am talking to him rite now) Where is the scribe? (you quote your scholars all the time) Where is the debater of this age? (you still question the Potter) Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (but you still quote from these wise wise men/scholars) [21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (the schoolmaster brings to the cross, nobody is saying your scholars dont have a purpose, but there comes a time when we are in NO more need of the schoolmaster. This is why Paul would say to you 'I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.' 2Co 2:2., they had progressed no further than this at this time. The Chosen, not the 'choosing', ones go further than this)
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [4} in whose case the god (this is the SPIRIT of slumber God GAVE them and who pray tell do you think that 'spirit' is? God gives most of Christianity "strong delusion" to believe a LIE.) of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. (Satan deceives through his cosmic system. His doctrines of demons. People who aren't interested in the truth will be suckers for the cosmic doctrines that are rampant in the world.)

[6] For God, who said, ''Light shall shine out of darkness,'' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

God has revealed Himself. He calls through the Gospel. Now each individual must choose for or against the message of the Gospel. God desires for all men to be saved. He calls out through the Gospel which is made understandable (Im sorry Mike but this 'understanding' is NOT GIVEN to everyone, that is WHY he spoke in parables. Mat 13:10 and 11) by the Holy Spirit. God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, choose (can't choose if your not GIVEN the understanding of it) to answer the call of the Gospel. God calls. Man answers 'yes' or 'no'. Of his own free will, based on his understanding of the facts.

And here we have it. We now have your answer to my question when I stated...

Quote:
Mike...tell me if I am wrong here, maybe I am misuderstanding you, because this is what I am SEEING you saying "and He chooses all who answer the call (in other words those who have CHOSEN Him FIRST!!) through positive volition toward the Gospel. (emph. mine)


Are you equating those who "answer the call" to those "who chose Christ"?

Why yes you are equating them the same, lets all read the bolded words to see what you are saying to the world....

"God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, CHOOSE to answer the call of the Gospel."(emp mine)

So therefore, this scripture...

"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...."

is either a flat out LIE in scriptures or NOT for anyone of our time. So which is it.

People really try to complicate what is in fact very simple (can't get any simpler than 'ye have NOT chosen me' Mike). Man's free will co-exists along with God's sovereign will, by God's sovereign will. God's sovereign will operates within the areas of 1) His directive will; 2) His overruling will; and 3) His permissive will. God allows man to have and to use free will. There are times when God overrules man's free will. But never in the case of individual salvation (and all WILL confess). That would violate God's very reason (God is creatING man in His own image, He is not done yet, the Mystery is not complete) in a for creating man in the first place.[/quote]
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:50 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
"LOVE GOD WITH ALL THAT YOU ARE AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"

This is the good fruit that identifies the tree! Let's keep this in our hearts...then carry on!
I love Mike more than he knows.
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