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Old 06-23-2010, 12:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is NOT the Father of the unbeliever. No one belongs to the family of God until and unless they believe in Christ. God's punishment of the unbeliever is not for correction. There is no purgatory. The punishment is punitive and it is eternal.

Paul referred to God being the father of all people when he was speaking to the pagan stoics ...

Act 17:26-29
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ “Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.


As mike would have us believe God is not the father God of most of the babies on the planet, or most of the children on the planet because they are hindu babies and children, or Islamic babies and children. Simply because they were not born in "Christian" homes ...
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:11 PM
 
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Mike555, can I ask you a question hypothetical in nature? I'd like your take on this or any other ET'ers take on it.

There was a young girl, 16 years old who never got into trouble. She was loved very much by friends, classmates and by her parents of course. She never stealed, volunteered in a soup kitchen for the homeless, always gave of herself. However, she really didn't enjoy going to church much, wasn't religious and never had a born-again experience. She did believe in God though.

One day, on her way home from school, she was kidnapped, raped and murdered by someone who was eventually caught by police. He was tried and convicted for his hideous crime and sentenced to the electric chair.

The day of his execution, he sincerely said the sinners prayer and asked God to forgive him.

The question is, which of them is in heaven and which is in hell?

Please don't assume anything not mentioned and dance around the question either. I'm real curious how you ET'ers answer this.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Paul referred to God being the father of all people when he was speaking to the pagan stoics ...

Act 17:26-29
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ĎFor we also are His children.í ďBeing then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.


As mike would have us believe God is not the father God of most of the babies on the planet, or most of the children on the planet because they are hindu babies and children, or Islamic babies and children. Simply because they were not born in "Christian" homes ...
No. Paul did not.

Acts 17:29 does not imply that all men are children of God. This verse has been discussed on other threads. As always there are many who refuse to listen.

Acts 17:29 ''Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Concerning Acts 17:29, C.I. Scofield wrote...

4(17:29) ''Offspring'' is from the Gk. genos meaning race. The reference is to the creation-work of God, in which He made man (i.e, mankind, the race in Adam) in His own likeness, Gen. 1:26-27, thus rebuking the thought that ''the Godhead is like unto gold,'' etc. The word ''Father'' is not used, nor does the passage affirm anything concerning fatherhood or sonship, which are relationships based upon faith and the new birth. Cp. Jn. 1:12-13; Gal. 3:26; 4:1-7; 1 Jn. 5:1.

[New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Acts 17:29, p. 1190.]

God is not the Father of the unbeliever. Only those who believe in Christ are born into the family of God by ADOPTION. The one who believes in Christ becomes a son by ADOPTION.

Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to frar again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out. ''Abba! Father!''

Ephesians 1:5 In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name...

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

As the passages above show, one is born again, into the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ. We are not natural sons. Only believers in Christ are adopted as sons into the family of God.

Everyone is born into the world already spiritually dead, under eternal condemnation, and remains so until and unless he is regenerated or born again through faith in Jesus Christ as the Scriptures say.

Jesus told Nicodemus, John 3:7 ''Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.' To be born into the family of God man must receive Jesus Christ as Savior.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Follow along now. I will try not to lose you. It is real simple. Here we go.

God has provided the Gospel. When the Gospel is presented to the hearer who is an unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel perspicacious to that unbeliever. The Gospel is spiritual phenomenon and is not understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever. Therefore, the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever. This is God calling through the Gospel as per 2 Thess. 2:14. Now, if upon understanding the Gospel message which has been presented to him, the hearer responds to the Gospel with positive volition, then in His ministry of effacacious grace, the Holy Spirit takes the faith which has been exercised by the hearer (NO THAT IS NOT WORKS-Eph. 2:8,9), and He carries that faith to the point of salvation. He makes the faith effective for salvation.

There is no merit in the faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. The faith is simply the means by which the work of Christ on the Cross is appropriated by the one who believes.

Now, we know that God desires that all men be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4. We also know that not everyone is saved even though God desires everyone to be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, ''I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.'' [20] Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [4} in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. (Satan deceives through his cosmic system. His doctrines of demons. People who aren't interested in the truth will be suckers for the cosmic doctrines that are rampant in the world.)

[6] For God, who said, ''Light shall shine out of darkness,'' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

God has revealed Himself. He calls through the Gospel. Now each individual must choose for or against the message of the Gospel. God desires for all men to be saved. He calls out through the Gospel which is made understandable by the Holy Spirit. God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, choose to answer the call of the Gospel. God calls. Man answers 'yes' or 'no'. Of his own free will, based on his understanding of the facts.

People really try to complicate what is in fact very simple. Man's free will co-exists along with God's sovereign will, by God's sovereign will. God's sovereign will operates within the areas of 1) His directive will; 2) His overruling will; and 3) His permissive will. God allows man to have and to use free will. There are times when God overrules man's free will. But never in the case of individual salvation. That would violate God's very reason for creating man in the first place.
I Corinthians 2: 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spiritís power, 5so that your faith might not rest on menís wisdom, but on Godís power.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
Mike555, can I ask you a question hypothetical in nature? I'd like your take on this or any other ET'ers take on it.

There was a young girl, 16 years old who never got into trouble. She was loved very much by friends, classmates and by her parents of course. She never stealed, volunteered in a soup kitchen for the homeless, always gave of herself. However, she really didn't enjoy going to church much, wasn't religious and never had a born-again experience. She did believe in God though.

One day, on her way home from school, she was kidnapped, raped and murdered by someone who was eventually caught by police. He was tried and convicted for his hideous crime and sentenced to the electric chair.

The day of his execution, he sincerely said the sinners prayer and asked God to forgive him.

The question is, which of them is in heaven and which is in hell?

Please don't assume anything not mentioned and dance around the question either. I'm real curious how you ET'ers answer this.
There is no take to be taken, and nothing to dance around.

Believing in God doesn't save you. You must believe specifically in Jesus Christ who Himself is God. In other words, believing in God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit does not save you. You must believe in Christ for salvation.

Acts 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

If the girl never believed in Christ for salvation, she is in Hades, awaiting her final transference to the lake of fire where she will spend eternity.

If the rapist/murderer believed in Christ for salvation before he was executed, he is in heaven.

The kind of person you are is irrelevant to your eternal destination. All that matters is if you receive God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ. Some of the most loving people are going to spend eternity in Hell because they never received Christ as Savior.

Jesus was judged for all the sins of the human race. That includes all the criminal acts of every criminal who ever lived. The issue is, will you place your faith in Christ to provide salvation for you.


Those who don't come to understand this before they die, will spend eternity in Hell. And there's nothing hypothetical about that.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is no take to be taken, and nothing to dance around.

Believing in God doesn't save you. You must believe specifically in Jesus Christ who Himself is God. In other words, believing in God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit does not save you. You must believe in Christ for salvation.

Acts 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

If the girl never believed in Christ for salvation, she is in Hades, awaiting her final transference to the lake of fire where she will spend eternity.

If the rapist/murderer believed in Christ for salvation before he was executed, he is in heaven.

The kind of person you are is irrelevant to your eternal destination. All that matters is if you receive God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ. Some of the most loving people are going to spend eternity in Hell because they never received Christ as Savior.

Jesus was judged for all the sins of the human race. That includes all the criminal acts of every criminal who ever lived. The issue is, will you place your faith in Christ to provide salvation for you.


Those who don't come to understand this before they die, will spend eternity in Hell. And there's nothing hypothetical about that.
This belief is why ET people have to redefine the definitions of the words justice and holy.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is no take to be taken, and nothing to dance around.

Believing in God doesn't save you. You must believe specifically in Jesus Christ who Himself is God. In other words, believing in God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit does not save you. You must believe in Christ for salvation.

Acts 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

If the girl never believed in Christ for salvation, she is in Hades, awaiting her final transference to the lake of fire where she will spend eternity.

If the rapist/murderer believed in Christ for salvation before he was executed, he is in heaven.

The kind of person you are is irrelevant to your eternal destination. All that matters is if you receive God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ. Some of the most loving people are going to spend eternity in Hell because they never received Christ as Savior.

Jesus was judged for all the sins of the human race. That includes all the criminal acts of every criminal who ever lived. The issue is, will you place your faith in Christ to provide salvation for you.


Those who don't come to understand this before they die, will spend eternity in Hell. And there's nothing hypothetical about that.

Anyone who believes what mike wrote above to be true justice is spiritually lawless ...
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Acts 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

If the girl never believed in Christ for salvation, she is in Hades, awaiting her final transference to the lake of fire where she will spend eternity.
You failed once again to write out that complete verse. Acts 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, and your household.

You only quoted part of it because if you quote it fully (out of context no less), it would say that maybe her mom or dad believed in Jesus and she won't have to burn in hell. It's bad enough to take a verse out of context, but to truncate part of the verse to fulfill your need to prove a point is shameful.
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
In correct, do you know the true meaning of this verse?

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Readers may refer back to post #126 to see the the poster is replying to.

What is incorrect? That God only has to say something once for it to be true? God need say something only one time for it to be true!!! Period.


2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture originates from one's own disclosure. [21] For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

You're still trying to deny man's free will by pointing out that that the Scriptures are inspired (God breathed) by God. How many times do you need to be told that God does the revealling, and man responds 'yes' or 'no.'



Quote:
And yet, it is IMPOSSIBLE to 'hear' and 'learn' (understand) if God makes one DEAF to hearing it, or until he 'opens' their 'ears'. Your formula should read.

THE ONE ---> that "I" open 'ears' of ---> will learn of me ---> will Come.

God does not withhold understanding anyone who desires to know Him. He only causes those who of their own free will have already rejected the truth, to be further hardened against the truth. God gives man over to his own desires and then punishes him for it.

It is not my formula. It is following John 6:45. Readers, simply refer back to post #126.


Quote:
God's 'CALLING' and God's 'CHOOSING' (not man's choosing) are two seperate things.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. (Again, this is GOD'S choosing, not man's)
Again. God calls through the Gospel.

2 Thess 2:14. ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.

John 6:44 ''No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.'

John 6:44 is explained by John 6:45. ''It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learnedd from the Father comes to Me.

This is a reference to the Gospel message being given. It is given, it is heard, it is understood.

Written in the prophets. John 7:42; Ex.4:15; 2 Tim. 3:16.

All who answer the call of the Gospel are chosen. Relatively few answer the call. Of their own free will.

Quote:
And now we are back to the same verse that is so hard for you to believe in, which is...

Joh 15:16 YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have chosen you,...

How can one claim that he/she has chosen Christ, when He, HIMSELF, tells them FLAT OUT that "YE HAVE NOT". Let me ask you a plain straight forward question then sir, and we will see if you think your Lord Jesus is a liar.

DID YOU CHOOSE CHRIST??

There is a HUGE difference between being CALLED and being CHOSEN. Just as there is a HUGE difference between being CALLED and being DRAGGED.
It is not I who lack understanding of what it means to be chosen. God knew from eternity past who would believe in Christ for salvation.

It is God's purpose to save all who come to God through a response to the Gospel.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good for those that love God, to those who are the called (through the Gospel 2 Thess 2:14) according to His purpose. (It is God's desire that all men be saved 1 Tim. 2:4. But it is God's purpose to save only those who answer the call of the Gospel John 3:16; Acts 16:31). [29] For whom he foreknew (those who from eternity past, He knew would of their own free will after understanding the issue, believe in Christ for salvation), he also predestined, these He also called (through the Gospel) ; and whom He called, these He also justified (at the point of salvation through faith in Christ Rom 3:26,28;Gal 3:6) and whom He justified, these He also glorified (ultimate sanctification occurs at the time of the resurrection of the body."

God chooses EVERYONE who answers the call of the Gospel with an affirmative response.

The specific passage you keep referring to is John 15:16 and refers specifically to Jesus' selection of the 12 disciples. Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after he, through the Holy Spirit ,had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen. Other related passages. Luke 6:13; Mt. 10:2-4; Mk 3:13-19; John 6:70; John 13:18.

Excerpt:

Quote:
[Jesus said] "You did not choose Me but I chose you..." John 15:16. I initially considered this ripped out of context, that Jesus here was speaking of the Twelve, not all Christians. Little did I know how right I was! Zondervan notes, "In terms of teacher-pupil relationships, Jesus here breaks with contemporary custom, for it was common in first-century Palestine for disciples to attach themselves to a particular rabbi, not vice versa..."1 So, this explicitly is about Jesus' "election" of the Disciples to learn from him and finish His work after he leaves.
john15.net ~ Conditional Election (Part 1) (http://www.john15.net/arm/ce1.php - broken link)





Again. God chooses all who answer the call of the Gospel. But in John 15:16, the emphasis is on the fact that Jesus chose the disciples to carry on His work after He returned to Heaven. Of course, Judas Iscariot was replaced by Paul.

God calls through the Gospel. The hearer responds positively. God chooses him. God knew from eternity past that the hearer would respond to the Gospel.



Quote:
No...that is a Man's Will that is NOT FREE from external or emotional CAUSES. Lets go back to this garden you speak of Mike, and see what happened. First lets look at where sin comes from.

1Jo 2:16 For all (I am assuming 'all sin', would you agree) that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world

Now lets look at Eve BEFORE she ate of the tree but AFTER she was enticed by the serpent and see if she emulated any of this lust or pride. And always remember that the NAME of the tree was the Knowledge of GOOD and evil.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (flesh?), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (eyes?), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride?), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Well, it looks like she already had these things "IN" her BEFORE she sinned. But did she make this choice WITHOUT being CAUSED to do so? AFTER she ate of it God asked her....

Gen 3:13 ..... What is this that thou hast done?.....

To fit your arguement, we might say that God said, "What is this CHOICE that you have made". Yes, she made a choice, but was it WITHOUT any CAUSE??? No....here is the cause of her making her choice:

And the woman said, The serpent beguiled (Heb: SEDUCED) me, and I did eat.

Therefore, she CHOSE what she CHOSE, because she was SEDUCED in to making the CHOICE. The 'seduction' was the 'cause' Mike. Her choice was NOT free of MANIPULATION. There is a cause to everthing we choose.

Isa 3:12 .......O my people, they which lead thee CAUSE thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people CAUSE them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

This should be sufficient enough scripture to show that one is "caused" to do this or that. It is interesting in the manner of Prayer that Jesus showed us, it ended with...

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The bolded words are not there just to make a sentence longer. He CAN LEAD someone into temptation. Lets face it, if we want a snack, and we are looking at a moldy old pickle and a thick chocolatey brownie, we don't just CHOOSE the brownie. We CHOOSE the brownie beCAUSE it tastes better then a moldy pickle. Name one thing that you have ever chosen that did not FIRST have a 'cause'.



Yes, and a man WILL do this, beCAUSE....
And he WILL NOT do this, beCAUSE....

Its not to hard to figure out. I assume you know you are a sinner (as am I), but ask yourself what CAUSES you to sin. You will undoubtedly come up with something in one of these catagories.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, ....
Man sins because he has a sin nature which was inherited from Adam. The sin nature causes temptation. The decision to sin comes from the volition. People sin because they give in to the temptation of the old sin nature, also, temptation from the world, and rarely, from Satan.




As I already told you, you are assigning a definition to free will which does not rightfully belong to it, and then arguing against the existence of free will on the basis of a faulty definition.

Man's free will has absolutely NOTHING to do with uncaused causes or being free from external influences, . Free will is nothing more, and nothing less, than man using his God given volition to either obey God or to disobey God. To say 'yes' to God, or to say 'No' to God. To choose or not to choose something regardless of the consequences.


A few more free will verses:

John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ''If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. And invitation to come to God and be saved.


Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me, and be saved, All the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."

John 5:40 You refuse to come to me to have life.

2 Thess. 2:10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.


Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!


Get rid of the philosophical arguments of man. They mean nothing.



Quote:
Does everybody have the Holy Spirit? If not how are they going to 'hear and understand'??
Again, this has already been covered. Man is born into the world already spiritually dead. Therefore, he cannot understand spiritual phenomenon. For that reason, God the Holy Spirit takes up the slack. The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel message understandable to the hearer of the message. That is one of His ministries.


Quote:
Yes, plain as punch, that is why, if you go back and read it, I bolded/highlighted the words MAKES in your sentences. To let you know that the Holy Spirit CAUSES on to hear and understand.
You keep repeating back to me what I have already told you. It is I who told you that the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer.


Quote:
What you are not seeing is that God DOES NOT GIVE THIS HEARING TO EVERYONE NOW, as Jesus stated. God BLOCKED them from hearing. So if they are NOT GIVEN the 'ears' to understand Mike, then HOW are they going to 'choose' WITH UNDERSTANDING? Jesus was talking to TWO groups of people, the CALLED (multitudes) and the CHOSEN (disciples). He spoke parables to the 'multitudes' and expounded (interpreted the parables) to HIS CHOSEN DISCIPLES. And remember, His CHOSEN at this time DID NOT UNDERSTAND UNTIL they recieved the Spirit. His disciples were CALLED by the Gospel FIRST (at this time, they did NOT understand), then Chosen BY GOD out of all the called SECOND (still no understanding), thirdly they ALL FORSOOK Him at His death (great CHOICE guys!), and then they were GIVEN the Spirit (and GIVEN understanding).
Everyone who hears the Gospel is given the understanding required to accept it or to reject it. Remember? God desires that all men be saved. The disciples were not particularly smart. Unlike the women who seem to have supported Jesus' ministry, and understood a great deal more about Jesus than His disciples did, the disciples remained ignorant during all of their time that they were with Christ. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit was given and the church-age began that they came to understand. Christ had many times spoken plainly to them. He clarified the parables with which He spoke to Israel, only AFTER Israel rejected Him. With the exeption of Judas Iscariot, who never was saved, the other disciples were. Peter certainly was saved at the time that he acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ (Mark 8:29). There is a difference between being saved and having an understanding of spirituall things beyond what is required to be saved. The disciples understood the Gospel well before they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and except for Judas Iscariot, they were saved. But it wasn't until the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon them that they acquired an understanding of all the things that Jesus had tried to teach them..


Quote:
This blows my mind. You have written almost a whole paragraph of total TRUTH and I dont think you YOURSELF believes it. Firstly, tell me of one person, who has eaten of the tree, who has NOT rebelled against God. Are not ALL sinners?
No one other than Adam and the woman has ever eaten of the tree of good and evil. It is because of Adam's sin that all are born spiritually dead and under comdemnation. We are all born into Satan's kingdom and are not transferred into the Kingdom of His beloved Son, until the moment of Faith in Christ.

Quote:
Then you tell me God will CAUSE their heart to be hardened (to this very day!!) by something HE does (giving this 'deluding influence').
God has caused national Israel to be partially hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, [26] and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ''
THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.''
[27] ''AND THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY
THEIR SINS.''

The reason that God has hardened Israel to this day, is because Israel FIRST rejected Jesus as the Messiah because He didn't meet their expectations of the Messiah.

Quote:
Then you say that Israel will 'turn back to God' (I'm assumming by taking AWAY this 'deluding influence', which is something else CAUSED by God),

Matthew 23:37 ''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (THERE'S FREEWILL ON A NATIONAL BASIS. National rejection of Israel of the Messiah. ) [38] ''Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! [39] ''For I say to your, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' ''


As a result of the judgments that occur during the Tribulation, national Israel will come to realize that Jesus is the Messiah that they rejected and will turn back to God.

Again, forget your philosophical arguments about uncaused causes and external influences. Free will is freedom to obey or disobey God. There is blessing in obedience, and there is discipline and cursing in disobedience.

Quote:
But then, BUT THEN, you say 'there will be a few individuals who of their own free will, will turn to God'.
The hardening that has come to Israel due to national discipline is partial, as is clearly stated in Romans 11:25. A few Jewish individuals have believed in Christ and are part of the Church. Not a part of Israel.


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Given this paragraph of yours Mike, and given your reasoning that man is given 'freewill', please tell me something. WHAT pray-tell has happened to the people of Israel's FREEWILL for the last 2000 years. Are you telling me that there has been 19 or so generations of Israelites that lived and died a WHOLE LIFE here on earth WITHOUT FREEWILL, because of this 'deluding influence' thing that God gave them???

You might want to rewrite that paragraph sir, your starting to sound like one of us.
Not at all. God works His plan to His own ends while allowing man's free will to operate. Israel had always been a rebellious nation, and had never fulfilled the purpose of evangelizing the world as God had intended them to. Since Israel has consistently disobeyed God throughout its history; the last act of rejection, of the Messiah Himself, brought Israel to it's present state of hardening. The Messiah had to make His first Advent when He did to fulfill the prophecies of His coming. He could not come any later in history then He did. Since Israel failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, it is still waiting for Him. Israel as a whole therefore cannot bring itself to believe that Jesus is the Messiah that they rejected. There are however, a few individuals who are exceptions to that. And do believe.


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Again, we can debate the word "aion(ios)" again, if you wish.

In denying that the Greek phrase 'eis tous aionas ton aionon' is the emphatic use of aionios,and means eternal, you place yourself in direct contradiction to some of the most respected Greek lexicographers and scholars of the twentieth century who agree that aionios means eternal.

Alan Gomes, who is a professor and chair in the dept of Theology at Talbot School of Theology, states,

quote; ''In the most emphatic language possible, we are told that the torment is unending. When we considered Matthew 25:46 above, we noted that aionios can, in some contexts, gualify nouns of limited duration. But here, we find the emphatic forms eis aionas aionon and eis tous aionas ton aionon (''unto the ages of the ages''). This construction is only used to describe unending duration. As Sasse points out, the ''twofold use of the term [aionios]'' is designed ''to emphasize the concept of eternity.''The fact that the forms used are plural in number further reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Speaking of the Greek construction in this verse, the great biblical comentator R.C.H. Lenski observes: ''The strongest expression for our ''forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, 'for the eons of the eons,' many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by 'forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones. '' (Gomes 18) unquote

Vine's Expository Dictionary agrees with Alan Gomes. It has 16 different occurances in of the phrase 'eis tous aionan ton aionon', which refer to things of eternal duration.

Gal 1:5; Phil 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Peter 4:11; 5:11; Rev 1:6; 5:13; 7:12. (Refering to the glory of God.)

Rev 1:18; 4:10; 10:6; 15:7 (The duration of God's life, or the kingdom He shares with the saints) Rev 11:15; 22:5

So, you are in disagreement with men such as Alan Gomes, Hermann Sasse, R. C. H. Lenski, and W. E. Vine.


Gomes, Alan W. ''Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell, Part One,'' Christian Research Journal 13, no 4, Spring 1991.

Furthermore, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich define Aion as follows: 1) '' a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end'' and 2) ''a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age.'' For the word Aionios 1) ''pert. to a long period of time, long ago;'' 2) ''pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God;'' and 3) ''pert. to a period of unending duration, without end'' (Danker, et. al., 2000,pp.32-33)

So if you want to continue to disagree with these scholars, do your debating with them..
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You failed once again to write out that complete verse. Acts 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, and your household.

You only quoted part of it because if you quote it fully (out of context no less), it would say that maybe her mom or dad believed in Jesus and she won't have to burn in hell. It's bad enough to take a verse out of context, but to truncate part of the verse to fulfill your need to prove a point is shameful.
This has been addressed before, and you were shown that if you read the entire passage up to verse 35, it clearly says that the entire household heard the Gospel and believed.

I repeat. Simply read the entire passage up to Acts 16:35 and see that each member of the household heard the Gospel and believed it and were saved.
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