U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-24-2010, 01:34 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,376,756 times
Reputation: 5865

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No one dies unless God allows it to happen. The time, place, and manner of everyone's death was determined by God in eternity past. God will not allow someone whom He has known from eternity past will believe in Christ, to die before they do so.
Nonsense. God can KNOW what will be but it has not been predetermined in our time line.
Quote:
The issue in salvation is never the kind of person you are, or the kind of life you've lived. There is but one issue in eternal salvation. And that issue is, will you believe in Christ for salvation, or will you reject Him as Savior?
More nonsense. The phrase is "believe ON Him" . . . which has nothing to do with this trivial concern over expressed belief. Your concept is based on a false and trivial concern over acknowledgment supposedly to satisfy some ego gratification need of God. Completely absurd. The God you believe in as YOU describe Him and His motives is an evil egomaniacal torturer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-24-2010, 01:40 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,590,353 times
Reputation: 4469
God is not a torturer - He's a perfectionist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 01:53 PM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,376,756 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
God is not a torturer - He's a perfectionist.
Amen . . . little elmer . . . and He always gets His way. None of His Creations are destroyed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 02:19 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,590,353 times
Reputation: 4469
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Amen . . . little elmer . . . and He always gets His way. None of His Creations are destroyed.
I wish that would reach everyone's spirit - if He has His way (and how many scriptures say that He does!!) and fire is undoubtedly a part of His plan...then what?

He will use fire to burn out the sin in us! We have read it wrong for too long!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2010, 04:14 AM
 
309 posts, read 296,050 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Readers may refer back to post #126 to see the the poster is replying to.

What is incorrect? That God only has to say something once for it to be true? God need say something only one time for it to be true!!! Period.


2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture originates from one's own disclosure. [21] For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

You're still trying to deny man's free will by pointing out that that the Scriptures are inspired (God breathed) by God. How many times do you need to be told that God does the revealling, and man responds 'yes' or 'no.'
I have no idea what you mean by your comments in Blue. What I asked, is if you knew the meaning of the said verse. And judging from the verse you posted, it is evident that the translation you quoted this from is 'incorrect' in this passage.

Here it is in the KJV (not that it does much better, it still leads people to the wrong conclusion):

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The words "of any private" is translated from the one Gk word 'idios', and yes, basically means "own, his own, one's own, it's own" (basically shows owner ship). In the said verse though, the greek texts shows that the word 'idios' is NOT pointing to a man or a person, but rather it is pointing the word 'prophesy'. So a proper translation would be:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of it's own interpretation.

Meaning that one verse in scriptures does NOT explain ITSELF. So we STUDY 'here a little, there a little' to find the meaning of it. You changed your wording NOW in your reply by saying "God need say something only one time for it to be true", but that is not what you said, what I commented on was your statement in blue below:


Quote:
I gave at least two verses I think. There are many more. But, the Scriptures only have to say something once for it to be true


Truth is not found in ONE scripture alone, I was not talking about 'freewill'. Sorry if you thought I was.

In response to your comment in Red above: Well, how many times do you need to be told that you are ‘wrong’. God does the ‘revealing’ the ‘giving’ the ‘unveiling’ to the ones He Chooses ONLY, but to the NON-Chosen he ‘hides’ does NOT ‘give’ and ‘veils’ it to their understanding. So, to fit it into ‘your reasoning’, the ones He ‘chooses’ to reveal truth to choose ‘yes’, and the ones He ‘chooses’ NOT to reveal truth choose ‘no’. Scripture is clear on this Mike, God chose the Israelites FIRST. They did NOT choose Him, for the most part they didn’t even know Him at first. Here is God’s choosing them BEFORE they knew Him.

Eze 20:5 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;

And yet they ALWAYS rebelled and rejected AFTER God chose them, NOT before He chose them like you say. Only the ones that God truly revealed Himself to (Moses, Joshua, David, etc.) chose the ‘yes’ part of your equation, and that too was AFTER God chose them FIRST. Everybody else chose ‘no’. You keep saying that simply “God gives them a ‘choice’ of Obey or Disobey”, and I keep telling you over and over and over again that this CHOICE, in some form or another, has been presented by God since the beginning of creation and all throughout the bible. And that a man, left to HIMSELF (not being touched by God) will ALWAYS choose ‘no’. Read all of Eze 20 and see what they ALWAYS chose Mike. The only ones who chose righteously were the ones that God ‘touched’ (Moses, Joshua, Elisha, David, etc.). God chose the ‘stiffnecked’ FIRST, while they were STILL stiffnecked, not because they chose Him first. You have it all wrong.

Deu 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed (the Israelites) after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Here we see that God chose the Israelites BEFORE they were even born (Gen 17:7), and AFTER they were born and STILL ‘stiffnecked’. Does this look like ‘positive volition’ to you Mike??? Are you telling me they Chose God BEFORE they were even born?. Even when they lived their lives God did not give them the ‘understanding’ that He gave unto Moses and others.

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

FIRST God Chose them, THEN we hear God saying ‘do this and do that’ or ‘IF thou do this then…., but IF thou does NOT…..”. Here is that ‘since creation’ choice again. God knows that man’s choice will ALWAYS be ‘no’. But He also knows that if He touches a man, THEN he will say ‘yes’. The problem is that Man himself (ones such as yourself) has not learned this, they have not learned that there is NO GOOD in them. This is why God keeps giving this question to ‘Untouched Man’ over and over and over again. So that man will be brought low and HUMBLED by his “ALWAYS EVIL” choices, that he may learn that his righteousness are but ‘filthy rags’. If a 'haughty' man will not turn to Him, then God will MAKE him low so that he will. If a man will not turn to Him while he is STRONG, then God will MAKE him WEAK so that he will. God's bringing of evil AND good are BOTH for the good of Man and his diverseness of statures and actions. Without the MANIPULATION of God, man, from birth to death, will always choose wrongly.

Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened (by God): for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. (heck, He knows that ALL are sinners)
Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.


God chooses them BEFORE they know, believe, and understand Him, NOT after they choose Him.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: (then AFTER that Mike) that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

They will ALWAYS choose wrongly, for that is ALL they know unto this day. This verse is the only truth you see in the bible at this time Mike.

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.


What you are NOT seeing is the WHY they did not choose righteously. It is simple, God did not give them the ability to do so.


Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:


The ones that God does NOT choose will always choose death rather then life.


Jer 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.


Quote:
God does not withhold understanding anyone who desires to know Him. He only causes those who of their own free will have already rejected the truth, to be further hardened against the truth. God gives man over to his own desires and then punishes him for it.
Oh...I see...so it goes like this:

If one, in THIS ONE LIFE they have
With their supposed 'freewill' rejects God, Jesus, Gospel, Truth (what ever you mean by the word 'truth' here)
Then He CAUSES their heart to be further against the truth (obviously so they can't understand it)
Then He GIVES them over to their own desires (by no eyes/ears, strong delusions)
FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE
Then punishes them 'eternally' for it

Boy oh boy....and you compared ME to a Calvinist??? You might wanna rewrite that too.


Quote:
It is not my formula. It is following John 6:45. Readers, simply refer back to post #126.
And Readers, simply refer back to post #130 for my rebuttal to this. Heck, read all of mine and Mikes correspondence on this thread to see scriptures that he can neither comment on or explain. Soon I will list them all so nobody forgets them.

Quote:
Again. God calls through the Gospel.

2 Thess 2:14. ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.

John 6:44 ''No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.'

John 6:44 is explained by John 6:45. ''It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learnedd from the Father comes to Me.

This is a reference to the Gospel message being given. It is given, it is heard, it is understood.

Written in the prophets. John 7:42; Ex.4:15; 2 Tim. 3:16.

All who answer the call of the Gospel are chosen. Relatively few answer the call. Of their own free will.
Responce to comment in Red.

According to you Mike, God has given Israel, for the last 2000 years (millions of individuals that have lived and died), a 'deluding influence' to further them from the truth. While having this 'delusion', they are unable to HEAR him and LEARN. Therefore, they can't CHOOSE him, much less 'come to' Him. (see bullet points above).

Well, I gotta say, you are getting closer to the truth about this 'freewill' stuff, but not quite there.

Quote:
It is not I who lack understanding of what it means to be chosen. God knew from eternity past who would believe in Christ for salvation.
Red. Yet another statement that lines with Calvinist thought. To follow with this reasoning, one concludes that God knew who would go to an 'eternal torment' and CREATED THEM ANYWAYS. These poor souls were DOOMED before they were even created. They had NO CHANCE at all. This carnal understanding is what happens when one is not given the eyes/ears to hear the truth of God.

Quote:
It is God's purpose to save all who come to God through a response to the Gospel.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good for those that love God, to those who are the called (through the Gospel 2 Thess 2:14) according to His purpose. (It is God's desire that all men be saved 1 Tim. 2:4. But it is God's purpose to save only those who answer the call of the Gospel John 3:16; Acts 16:31). [29] For whom he foreknew (those who from eternity past, He knew would of their own free will after understanding the issue, believe in Christ for salvation), he also predestined, these He also called (through the Gospel) ; and whom He called, these He also justified (at the point of salvation through faith in Christ Rom 3:26,28;Gal 3:6) and whom He justified, these He also glorified (ultimate sanctification occurs at the time of the resurrection of the body."
Great verse...lets erase all of Man's confusing logic here and see WHO is actually DOING EVERYTHING here.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yep, its God, He works everything after the council of His own will as the scripture states.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things (even man’s will) after the counsel of his own will:


Quote:
God chooses EVERYONE who answers the call of the Gospel with an affirmative response.

The specific passage you keep referring to is John 15:16 and refers specifically to Jesus' selection of the 12 disciples. Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after he, through the Holy Spirit ,had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen. Other related passages. Luke 6:13; Mt. 10:2-4; Mk 3:13-19; John 6:70; John 13:18.

Excerpt:



john15.net ~ Conditional Election (Part 1) (http://www.john15.net/arm/ce1.php - broken link)





Again. God chooses all who answer the call of the Gospel. But in John 15:16, the emphasis is on the fact that Jesus chose the disciples to carry on His work after He returned to Heaven. Of course, Judas Iscariot was replaced by Paul.

God calls through the Gospel. The hearer responds positively. God chooses him. God knew from eternity past that the hearer would respond to the Gospel.

Mike, do yourself a big favor and search the scriptures for the word ‘chose, chosen, chooseth’. Everywhere that this word pertains to God’s ‘choosing’, you will find that God ALWAYS CHOSE FIRST. Once again, all throughout scripture you will ALWAYS see the pattern of “you have NOT chosen, me but I have chosen you”. Christ is doing nothing different than what has been done through God throughout history. He ‘chose’ a remnant out of them every time. Since creation God has been breaking “with contemporary custom”. Your excerpt here has only a ‘carnal’ understanding of scripture. Christ words are ‘spirit’, the carnal man cannot understand them.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Quote:
Man sins because he has a sin nature which was inherited from Adam. The sin nature causes temptation. The decision to sin comes from the volition. People sin because they give in to the temptation of the old sin nature, also, temptation from the world, and rarely, from Satan.

Well, you almost got it “The sin nature CAUSES temptation.” But, as I keep saying there choice will ALWAYS be the wrong one (if apart from God touching them).



Quote:
As I already told you, you are assigning a definition to free will which does not rightfully belong to it, and then arguing against the existence of free will on the basis of a faulty definition.

Man's free will has absolutely NOTHING to do with uncaused causes or being free from external influences, . Free will is nothing more, and nothing less, than man using his God given volition to either obey God or to disobey God. To say 'yes' to God, or to say 'No' to God. To choose or not to choose something regardless of the consequences.

No, I am assigning TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE that shows that man is CAUSED to choose this or that. You just don’t like it. You don’t believe the bible about this Mike. Here is one of the verses I gave you…

Isa 3:12 .......O my people, they which lead thee CAUSE thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Answer this sir, are you telling me that the people were NOT CAUSED to choose ‘err’ here?? Of course you are, which makes this scripture a lie.


Quote:
A few more free will verses:

John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ''If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. And invitation to come to God and be saved.


Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me, and be saved, All the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."
Here’s that ‘since creation choice’ again. It is no different than what has been said throughout history.

Quote:
John 5:40 You refuse to come to me to have life.

2 Thess. 2:10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
And the ones who are Untouched by God will ALWAYS refuse, as the scripture attests.


Quote:
Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Emph. mine


See….told you so.

Quote:
Get rid of the philosophical arguments of man. They mean nothing.
I told you that philosophically, scientifically, and SCRITURALY that man is UNABLE to make an Uncaused choice. Therefore, I have given you SCRIPTURES that support my claim (guess they mean nothing too then). It is funny that you didn’t even comment on any of them.

Quote:
Again, this has already been covered. Man is born into the world already spiritually dead. Therefore, he cannot understand spiritual phenomenon. For that reason, God the Holy Spirit takes up the slack. The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel message understandable to the hearer of the message. That is one of His ministries.
I, for the most part, agree with this, but once again you did not answer my question: “Does everybody have the Holy Spirit?”


Quote:
You keep repeating back to me what I have already told you. It is I who told you that the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer.



You keep dodging around what “I am telling” you. Answer my question, ““Does everybody have the Holy Spirit?”. If the Spirit is NOT GIVEN to every man, then if a certain man is not given it, by your OWN admission above, it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to ‘understand’. I am pretty sure you know what I am getting at here. I think you are playing with me here. I just don’t think you want to admit to what you are saying.

I added my statements (blue) to your statement below to prove my point...

Quote:
E
Everyone who (is given the ear that) hears the Gospel is given the understanding (by the Spirit) required to accept it or to reject it. Remember! God desires that all men be saved. (Mike, please note how you like to repeat this sentence, but conveniently keeps ignoring my question on “……are we to believe that Christ is NOT able to quicken 'whom he will/desires', given Mike's understanding of this Greek word 'thelo'. Jn 5:21) The disciples were not particularly smart. Unlike the women who seem to have supported Jesus' ministry, and understood a great deal more about Jesus than His disciples did, the disciples remained ignorant during all of their time that they were with Christ. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit was given and the church-age began that they came to understand. (Exactly what I am talking about. BUT, was the Spirit given to ALL?) Christ had many times spoken plainly to them. He clarified the parables with which He spoke to Israel, only AFTER Israel rejected Him. (They have rejected Him since birth Mike, so there is no AFTER, there is only an ALWAYS. This is what you don’t see.) With the exeption of Judas Iscariot, who never was saved, the other disciples were. Peter certainly was saved at the time that he acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ (Mark 8:29). There is a difference between being saved and having an understanding of spirituall things beyond what is required to be saved. (‘difference’…..I agree, but not the way you think of it.) The disciples understood the Gospel well before they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and except for Judas Iscariot, they were saved. (Hmmm…well how can they ‘understand’ the Gospel, when you yourself say the “…the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer”, but then you state they ‘understood’ BEFORE being indwelt with the Spirit. No…they did not have understanding the Gospel, much less anything He said before Pentecost. Mar 4:13, Luk 18:34, Jo 12:16) But it wasn't until the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon them that they acquired an understanding of all the things that Jesus had tried to teach them.

Quote:
No one other than Adam and the woman has ever eaten of the tree of good and evil. It is because of Adam's sin that all are born spiritually dead and under comdemnation. We are all born into Satan's kingdom and are not transferred into the Kingdom of His beloved Son, until the moment of Faith in Christ.
This is a spiritual thing that I don’t think you would understand. They didn’t eat some fabled ‘apple’ Mike.

Quote:
God has caused national Israel to be partially hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, [26] and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ''
THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.''
[27] ''AND THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.''

The reason that God has hardened Israel to this day, is because Israel FIRST rejected Jesus as the Messiah because He didn't meet their expectations of the Messiah.
No, they had rejected Him ALL ALONG. Can you not see that it was a PLAN of God for MAN to reject HIM??? Contrary to your belief Mike, God did not make a PLAN A that man screwed up, so He therefore had to make a PLAN B. All that has happened from creation till NOW has been a PLAN OF GOD, and it has been working perfectly.

Quote:
Matthew 23:37 ''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (THERE'S FREEWILL ON A NATIONAL BASIS. National rejection of Israel of the Messiah. ) [38] ''Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! [39] ''For I say to your, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' ''


As a result of the judgments that occur during the Tribulation, national Israel will come to realize that Jesus is the Messiah that they rejected and will turn back to God.
Sir Mike, I will put this as PLAINLY as possible. IF the ISRAELITES had NOT rejected God, not ONE Gentile could be saved. This is all a plan of God. They were not GIVEN the understanding ears/eyes to CHOOSE Righteously in the first place. REREAD THE TOP OF THIS POST!! You keep giving me scriptures that show ‘unwillingness’ ‘not choosing’ ‘not coming’, but to date you have yet to provide one shred of proof that they could do otherwise, WITHOUT THE TOUCH OF GOD!!!


Quote:
Again, forget your philosophical arguments about uncaused causes and external influences. Free will is freedom to obey or disobey God. There is blessing in obedience, and there is discipline and cursing in disobedience.
And you throw many scriptures out the window that show CAUSES of peoples choices. You even say yourself that the Spirit CAUSES/MAKES them understand. You argue against SCRIPTURES, not philosophy.

Quote:
The hardening that has come to Israel due to national discipline is partial, as is clearly stated in Romans 11:25. A few Jewish individuals have believed in Christ and are part of the Church. Not a part of Israel.
And again, WHO CAUSED their heart to be hardened? Well, we are not left to guess Mike. Heck, we don’t even need scripture on this one, for you answer yourself when you say “God has caused national Israel to be partially hardened”. Israel has ALWAYS been choosing against God. You explain this very beautifully YOURSELF right here (emph. Mine)…..


Quote:
Not at all. God works His plan to His own ends while allowing man's free will to operate. Israel had always been a rebellious nation, and had never fulfilled the purpose of evangelizing the world as God had intended them to. Since Israel has consistently disobeyed God throughout its history; the last act of rejection, of the Messiah Himself, brought Israel to it's present state of hardening. The Messiah had to make His first Advent when He did to fulfill the prophecies of His coming. He could not come any later in history then He did. Since Israel failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, it is still waiting for Him. Israel as a whole therefore cannot bring itself to believe that Jesus is the Messiah that they rejected. There are however, a few individuals who are exceptions to that. And do believe.
You blew my mind again Mike!!!! If you take the word “free” out of your statement above, and understand the word “intended” with a SPIRITUAL eye, then that statement would be nothing short of biblical TRUTH. Notice all of the words you use Mike (allowing, always, never, purpose, consistently, present state, failed (always?), still waiting, canNOT bring itself to believe, few).

Interesting though. You keep posting scriptures that state "Whosever believes..." or "one must believe", but then you state this phrase here...."Israel as a whole therefore cannot bring itself to believe that Jesus is the Messiah". And WHY?? You answer this too when you say..."God has CAUSED national Israel to be partially hardened...". There you have it Mike!!!!! Here is the truth that I have been trying do get accross to you, and you typed it with your OWN hand. They CANNOT believe, because God CAUSED their heart to be heardened.

But if we leave your whole statement as is (using the word 'free') as you wrote it, what you are saying then, is they have been given ‘freewill’ ALL THIS time, and have CHOSEN the wrongly always, consistently, etc. Can you not see what you are saying here Mike?? Think about it for a while. For goodness sakes, PRAY on what you have written with your own hand. I rebuke myself for even telling you reread the top of this post, FOR YOU ALREADY SEE that they ALWAYS and CONSISTANTLY were REJECTING him. So ask yourself something now, “What is CAUSING them to choose this E V E R Y T I M E??? They are SINNERS, so left to THEMSELVES (without God opening eyes/ears/understanding), they will ALWAYS and CONSISTANTLY sin and choose the wrong. What I don’t understand is why you keep claiming that they had ‘freewill’ then. These Israelites are given freewill, as you say, but choose wrongly EVERYIME (consistently, always, etc.)???? Pray-tell, what are the chances of that!!! If looking at it this way, he is only FREE to choose wrongly EVERYTIME. He is only free to SIN. This is what I am trying to get across to you. We are ALL “accustomed to doing evil”. We are ALL sinners. It is when God comes closer to US (gives us eyes/ears) is when we come closer to HIM. Not the other way around.

I am now wandering how you came to know God Mike. Something had to happen! He had to do something TO you or FOR you or IN you FIRST to bring you to Him. Whether it be an experience like the Prodical Son, the loss of a family member, being brought very LOW, made abased, almost dying, etc. He brings us Mike, turns us, directs us, molds us, etc. We do not do this of ourselves. There are different ways that God brings a man to Him, depending on where that Man is in his life. But, as I said before, faith grows, there is a weaker faith and a stronger one. I don’t see how you can get THIS CLOSE to the truth and still claim “freewill”. Unless you are saying that the Israelites had ‘freewill’, but choose wrong EVERYTIME!!


Quote:
In denying that the Greek phrase 'eis tous aionas ton aionon' is the emphatic use of aionios,and means eternal, you place yourself in direct contradiction to some of the most respected Greek lexicographers and scholars of the twentieth century who agree that aionios means eternal.

Alan Gomes, who is a professor and chair in the dept of Theology at Talbot School of Theology, states,

quote; ''In the most emphatic language possible, we are told that the torment is unending. When we considered Matthew 25:46 above, we noted that aionios can, in some contexts, gualify nouns of limited duration. But here, we find the emphatic forms eis aionas aionon and eis tous aionas ton aionon (''unto the ages of the ages''). This construction is only used to describe unending duration. As Sasse points out, the ''twofold use of the term [aionios]'' is designed ''to emphasize the concept of eternity.''The fact that the forms used are plural in number further reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Speaking of the Greek construction in this verse, the great biblical comentator R.C.H. Lenski observes: ''The strongest expression for our ''forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, 'for the eons of the eons,' many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by 'forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones. '' (Gomes 18) unquote

Vine's Expository Dictionary agrees with Alan Gomes. It has 16 different occurances in of the phrase 'eis tous aionan ton aionon', which refer to things of eternal duration.

Gal 1:5; Phil 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Peter 4:11; 5:11; Rev 1:6; 5:13; 7:12. (Refering to the glory of God.)

Rev 1:18; 4:10; 10:6; 15:7 (The duration of God's life, or the kingdom He shares with the saints) Rev 11:15; 22:5

So, you are in disagreement with men such as Alan Gomes, Hermann Sasse, R. C. H. Lenski, and W. E. Vine.


Gomes, Alan W. ''Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell, Part One,'' Christian Research Journal 13, no 4, Spring 1991.

Furthermore, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich define Aion as follows: 1) '' a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end'' and 2) ''a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age.'' For the word Aionios 1) ''pert. to a long period of time, long ago;'' 2) ''pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God;'' and 3) ''pert. to a period of unending duration, without end'' (Danker, et. al., 2000,pp.32-33)

So if you want to continue to disagree with these scholars, do your debating with them..

And you and your scholars are disagreeing with scholars/writers such as….

Andrew Jukes, Steve Jones, E. H. Lake, John Wesley Hanson, Chaplain Ken Allen, A.A. Miner, T. J. Sawyer, C. R. Moor, O. F. Safford, A. St. John Chambre, Quillen Hamilton Shinn, Kenneth W. Eckerty, Dr. Loyal Hurley, Albert Jenke, Hosea Ballou, Dr. John van Schaik, Thomas B. Thayer, Rev. I. D. Williamson, Otis A. Skinner, E. E. Guild, Cecil J. Blay, Samuel Cox, Pastor David R. Baughman, Don Smith, T. Southwood Smith, Lee Salisbury, Asher Moore, Rev. S. Crane, J. M. Austin, George Rogers, Joseph E. Kirk, William C. Rebmann, Adlai Loudy, Leon A. Bynoe, James Coram, Clarence Jordan, Thomas Whittemore, among others.

Tell me Mike, does it impress you to see all these UR scholars and writers that I have listed??

I didn’t think so. So it doesn’t impress me either for you to list yours. I will tell you the secret of learning TRUTH in the bible when it comes to pastors, preachers, scholars, etc., and here it is: “TRUST NO ONE”. When studying the bible, the best way to approach ‘other mens’ reasonings is Just diligently read and study for YOURSELF and "WEIGH ALL", but know that just because someone of importance says something, does not mean it is truth.

For example, the following verses (Luk 1:33, Rom 1:25, Rom 9:5, Rom 11:36, 2Cor 11:31) have the Accusative PLURAL Masculine form of ‘aion’ and they are translated ‘forever’ in the KJV. Ask anyone (maybe even your scholars) if the SINGLE word ‘forever’ means “eternity” and most will tell you YES. So what pray-tell is the difference from what Alan Gomes says about the phrase “forever and ever” meaning ‘eternitiy’ and this ONE PLURAL word meaning ‘eternity’. I will ask you, the question. When you read the verses I listed, are you thinking about “eternity”?? If so, then know that they do NOT have the phrase “eis tous aionas ton aionon”, but just ONE PLURAL word for aion, and STILL are translated “forever” which is understood as eternity by most. Are you still thinking about eternity in these verses Mike? Your scholars cannot answer this nor the statement I posted to you in another thread, which was….

I have pointed out to you before that there are several occurrences of the phrase “age [SINGULAR] and age [SINGULAR]”. Again, if the phrase “unto the ages [PLURAL] of the ages [PLURAL]” EMPHATICALLY means ETERNITY as you say, then the SUNGULAR form “age to the age” (Heb 1:8) MUST emphatically mean “half way”, right?? Or maybe the SINGULAR/PLURAL form “age of the age(s)” (Eph 3:21) must emphatically mean three quarters of the way, right?
Tell me… what does the phrases with “age/age” and “age/ages” mean if ONLY the “plural/plural” form EMPHATICALLY means Eternal?????

Even the SINGULAR form of this word is translated ‘forever’ in some places. So the dilemma continues. You really need to jump in and do a thorough study of this word Mike. Don’t just blindly believer your scholars, or NOT EVEN MY scholars for that matter. Just do a good study on them. Or just answer all the questions I have posed about these words “aion” and “aionios”.

Last edited by joeallcomm; 06-26-2010 at 04:22 AM.. Reason: fix quotes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2010, 04:52 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,589,616 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense. God can KNOW what will be but it has not been predetermined in our time line. More nonsense. The phrase is "believe ON Him" . . . which has nothing to do with this trivial concern over expressed belief. Your concept is based on a false and trivial concern over acknowledgment supposedly to satisfy some ego gratification need of God. Completely absurd. The God you believe in as YOU describe Him and His motives is an evil egomaniacal torturer.
And not only that, but I think a lot of people, particularly those who teach ET, are talking about a mental ascent when they say "if you believe in the name of Jesus". But it is so much deeper than that. We do not choose Christ as if he were something off a menu of choices. Jesus even said, "you have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen YOU...". There was no leaving our destiny to chance! There are millions, dare I say billions of people on the earth who have not yet learned about the salvation that THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN in Christ! - But we learn patience by bearing with those who do not understand what we are talking about. So I guess this is good exercise for us in the spirit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2010, 08:30 AM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
Reputation: 7507
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
I have no idea what you mean by your comments in Blue. What I asked, is if you knew the meaning of the said verse. And judging from the verse you posted, it is evident that the translation you quoted this from is 'incorrect' in this passage.
To the contrary. That translation was my pastor's own corrected translation of that verse. A better translation. He had 5 years of Hebrew and ten years of Greek. And He knew what he was doing. His name was Robert B. Thieme Jr. of Berachah Church of Houston TX.


Quote:
Here it is in the KJV (not that it does much better, it still leads people to the wrong conclusion):

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The words "of any private" is translated from the one Gk word 'idios', and yes, basically means "own, his own, one's own, it's own" (basically shows owner ship). In the said verse though, the greek texts shows that the word 'idios' is NOT pointing to a man or a person, but rather it is pointing the word 'prophesy'. So a proper translation would be:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of it's own interpretation.

Meaning that one verse in scriptures does NOT explain ITSELF. So we STUDY 'here a little, there a little' to find the meaning of it. You changed your wording NOW in your reply by saying "God need say something only one time for it to be true", but that is not what you said, what I commented on was your statement in blue below:
No, it is not saying that. 2 Peter 1:20,21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture originates from one's own disclosure. For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The passage is saying that prophecy which has been set down in Scripture originated from the Holy Spirit and not from men.


Quote:


Truth is not found in ONE scripture alone, I was not talking about 'freewill'. Sorry if you thought I was.


Scripture does build on scripture. That doesn't mean however that there is no truth in any one particular verse. And again, something need be said only once for it to be true.


Quote:
In response to your comment in Red above: Well, how many times do you need to be told that you are ‘wrong’. God does the ‘revealing’ the ‘giving’ the ‘unveiling’ to the ones He Chooses ONLY, but to the NON-Chosen he ‘hides’ does NOT ‘give’ and ‘veils’ it to their understanding. So, to fit it into ‘your reasoning’, the ones He ‘chooses’ to reveal truth to choose ‘yes’, and the ones He ‘chooses’ NOT to reveal truth choose ‘no’. Scripture is clear on this Mike, God chose the Israelites FIRST. They did NOT choose Him, for the most part they didn’t even know Him at first. Here is God’s choosing them BEFORE they knew Him.
This goes back to the divine decrees and the omniscience of God in eternity past. God elected Israel for a purpose. You can't seem to understand that the sovereignty of God exists along with the free will of man by divine decree. You continue to fail to distinquish between God's directive will, His overruling will, and His permissive will. My answer to all of your objections which follow is going to be to refer to the divine decrees which is the subject of my new thread.


Quote:
Eze 20:5 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;

And yet they ALWAYS rebelled and rejected AFTER God chose them, NOT before He chose them like you say. Only the ones that God truly revealed Himself to (Moses, Joshua, David, etc.) chose the ‘yes’ part of your equation, and that too was AFTER God chose them FIRST. Everybody else chose ‘no’. You keep saying that simply “God gives them a ‘choice’ of Obey or Disobey”, and I keep telling you over and over and over again that this CHOICE, in some form or another, has been presented by God since the beginning of creation and all throughout the bible. And that a man, left to HIMSELF (not being touched by God) will ALWAYS choose ‘no’. Read all of Eze 20 and see what they ALWAYS chose Mike. The only ones who chose righteously were the ones that God ‘touched’ (Moses, Joshua, Elisha, David, etc.). God chose the ‘stiffnecked’ FIRST, while they were STILL stiffnecked, not because they chose Him first. You have it all wrong.
You really need to familiarize yourself with the divine decrees and how they relate to man's free will.


Quote:
Deu 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed (the Israelites) after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Here we see that God chose the Israelites BEFORE they were even born (Gen 17:7), and AFTER they were born and STILL ‘stiffnecked’. Does this look like ‘positive volition’ to you Mike??? Are you telling me they Chose God BEFORE they were even born?. Even when they lived their lives God did not give them the ‘understanding’ that He gave unto Moses and others.

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

FIRST God Chose them, THEN we hear God saying ‘do this and do that’ or ‘IF thou do this then…., but IF thou does NOT…..”. Here is that ‘since creation’ choice again. God knows that man’s choice will ALWAYS be ‘no’. But He also knows that if He touches a man, THEN he will say ‘yes’. The problem is that Man himself (ones such as yourself) has not learned this, they have not learned that there is NO GOOD in them. This is why God keeps giving this question to ‘Untouched Man’ over and over and over again. So that man will be brought low and HUMBLED by his “ALWAYS EVIL” choices, that he may learn that his righteousness are but ‘filthy rags’. If a 'haughty' man will not turn to Him, then God will MAKE him low so that he will. If a man will not turn to Him while he is STRONG, then God will MAKE him WEAK so that he will. God's bringing of evil AND good are BOTH for the good of Man and his diverseness of statures and actions. Without the MANIPULATION of God, man, from birth to death, will always choose wrongly.

Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened (by God): for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. (heck, He knows that ALL are sinners)
Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.


God chooses them BEFORE they know, believe, and understand Him, NOT after they choose Him.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: (then AFTER that Mike) that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

They will ALWAYS choose wrongly, for that is ALL they know unto this day. This verse is the only truth you see in the bible at this time Mike.

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.


What you are NOT seeing is the WHY they did not choose righteously. It is simple, God did not give them the ability to do so.


Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:


The ones that God does NOT choose will always choose death rather then life.


Jer 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.
Quote:



Oh...I see...so it goes like this:

If one, in THIS ONE LIFE they have
With their supposed 'freewill' rejects God, Jesus, Gospel, Truth (what ever you mean by the word 'truth' here)
Then He CAUSES their heart to be further against the truth (obviously so they can't understand it)
Then He GIVES them over to their own desires (by no eyes/ears, strong delusions)
FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE
Then punishes them 'eternally' for it

Boy oh boy....and you compared ME to a Calvinist??? You might wanna rewrite that too.
Quite simply, the omniscience of God knew in eternity past, the freewill decisions of man and put them into the divine decrees. God chooses man based on His omniscience of the facts. This is explained more fully in my other thread.




Quote:
And Readers, simply refer back to post #130 for my rebuttal to this. Heck, read all of mine and Mikes correspondence on this thread to see scriptures that he can neither comment on or explain. Soon I will list them all so nobody forgets them.
So you would have others believe. It is not necessary to comment on each individual verse that you think disproves man's free will. I have provided passages that show that man does have voliton. And I have in my new thread gone into some detail about the divine Divines, the soveignty of God, and the free will of man.


Quote:
Responce to comment in Red.

According to you Mike, God has given Israel, for the last 2000 years (millions of individuals that have lived and died), a 'deluding influence' to further them from the truth. While having this 'delusion', they are unable to HEAR him and LEARN. Therefore, they can't CHOOSE him, much less 'come to' Him. (see bullet points above).

Well, I gotta say, you are getting closer to the truth about this 'freewill' stuff, but not quite there.
See other thread.

Quote:
Red. Yet another statement that lines with Calvinist thought. To follow with this reasoning, one concludes that God knew who would go to an 'eternal torment' and CREATED THEM ANYWAYS. These poor souls were DOOMED before they were even created. They had NO CHANCE at all. This carnal understanding is what happens when one is not given the eyes/ears to hear the truth of God.
They had every chance. The Gospel call is given to all. Those who reject Christ do so of their own free will.



Quote:
Great verse...lets erase all of Man's confusing logic here and see WHO is actually DOING EVERYTHING here.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yep, its God, He works everything after the council of His own will as the scripture states.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things (even man’s will) after the counsel of his own will:





Mike, do yourself a big favor and search the scriptures for the word ‘chose, chosen, chooseth’. Everywhere that this word pertains to God’s ‘choosing’, you will find that God ALWAYS CHOSE FIRST. Once again, all throughout scripture you will ALWAYS see the pattern of “you have NOT chosen, me but I have chosen you”. Christ is doing nothing different than what has been done through God throughout history. He ‘chose’ a remnant out of them every time. Since creation God has been breaking “with contemporary custom”. Your excerpt here has only a ‘carnal’ understanding of scripture. Christ words are ‘spirit’, the carnal man cannot understand them.
Do yourself a favor and learn something about the divine decrees. Further, learn something about the various categories of God's will. His directive, Overruling, and permissive will.


Quote:
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.





Well, you almost got it “The sin nature CAUSES temptation.” But, as I keep saying there choice will ALWAYS be the wrong one (if apart from God touching them).
God has always initiated contact with man. You persist in denying that I have said that.

Quote:

No, I am assigning TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE that shows that man is CAUSED to choose this or that. You just don’t like it. You don’t believe the bible about this Mike. Here is one of the verses I gave you…

Isa 3:12 .......O my people, they which lead thee CAUSE thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Answer this sir, are you telling me that the people were NOT CAUSED to choose ‘err’ here?? Of course you are, which makes this scripture a lie.
Again, learn something about the divine decrees.



Quote:
Here’s that ‘since creation choice’ again. It is no different than what has been said throughout history.



And the ones who are Untouched by God will ALWAYS refuse, as the scripture attests.


Emph. mine

See….told you so.



I told you that philosophically, scientifically, and SCRITURALY that man is UNABLE to make an Uncaused choice. Therefore, I have given you SCRIPTURES that support my claim (guess they mean nothing too then). It is funny that you didn’t even comment on any of them.
Two words. Divine decrees.


Quote:
I, for the most part, agree with this, but once again you did not answer my question: “Does everybody have the Holy Spirit?”





You keep dodging around what “I am telling” you. Answer my question, ““Does everybody have the Holy Spirit?”. If the Spirit is NOT GIVEN to every man, then if a certain man is not given it, by your OWN admission above, it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to ‘understand’. I am pretty sure you know what I am getting at here. I think you are playing with me here. I just don’t think you want to admit to what you are saying.
I told you that the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever when he hears the Gospel. That was quite plain. How is it that you are unable to comprehend so clear a statement as that?

Now, during the church-age, every believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling his body. The other two members of the Trinity also indwell the body of the believer.


Quote:
I added my statements (blue) to your statement below to prove my point...






This is a spiritual thing that I don’t think you would understand. They didn’t eat some fabled ‘apple’ Mike.



No, they had rejected Him ALL ALONG. Can you not see that it was a PLAN of God for MAN to reject HIM??? Contrary to your belief Mike, God did not make a PLAN A that man screwed up, so He therefore had to make a PLAN B. All that has happened from creation till NOW has been a PLAN OF GOD, and it has been working perfectly.
Adam and the woman did not reject God all along. It is unknown how long they were in the garden before they disobeyed God. It could have been weeks or many many years.

It was not God's plan for them to reject Him. He knew that they would reject them. But that doesn't mean that He wanted them to. And again, learn something about the angelic conflict and the divine decrees.

They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't an apple, but it was a real fruit. Apparently, you allegorize the Bible where it should be taken literally.

God created man and He permitted the fall. He didn't cause it, He didn't desire it, but He allowed it under His permissive will. It is the permissive will of God which allows man to exercise his free will in disobedience to God.

Quote:

Sir Mike, I will put this as PLAINLY as possible. IF the ISRAELITES had NOT rejected God, not ONE Gentile could be saved. This is all a plan of God. They were not GIVEN the understanding ears/eyes to CHOOSE Righteously in the first place. REREAD THE TOP OF THIS POST!! You keep giving me scriptures that show ‘unwillingness’ ‘not choosing’ ‘not coming’, but to date you have yet to provide one shred of proof that they could do otherwise, WITHOUT THE TOUCH OF GOD!!!
Once again, this all goes back to the divine decrees and God's omniscience regarding their choices.

You keep harping on the touch of God when its been said repeatedly that God initiates contact. As in the call of the Gospel.

Try Matthew 8:5-10 concerning the Roman centurians faith in Christ.

Or Matthew 15:21-27 concerning the Syrophoenician woman.

Or Luke 18:35-42.



Every passage that tells you to believe in Christ, or to have faith in Christ tells you that you can choose for Christ.

Quote:
And you throw many scriptures out the window that show CAUSES of peoples choices. You even say yourself that the Spirit CAUSES/MAKES them understand. You argue against SCRIPTURES, not philosophy.
I have explained all about the divine decrees in my new thread.

Quote:
And again, WHO CAUSED their heart to be hardened? Well, we are not left to guess Mike. Heck, we don’t even need scripture on this one, for you answer yourself when you say “God has caused national Israel to be partially hardened”. Israel has ALWAYS been choosing against God. You explain this very beautifully YOURSELF right here (emph. Mine)…..
I also said that they were under discipline for having first rejected the Messiah. God didn't just cause Israel heart to be hardened for no reason. Christ had previously offered to bring in the Miillennium kingdom to Israel before they had rejected Him as Messiah.

Quote:
You blew my mind again Mike!!!! If you take the word “free” out of your statement above, and understand the word “intended” with a SPIRITUAL eye, then that statement would be nothing short of biblical TRUTH. Notice all of the words you use Mike (allowing, always, never, purpose, consistently, present state, failed (always?), still waiting, canNOT bring itself to believe, few).

Interesting though. You keep posting scriptures that state "Whosever believes..." or "one must believe", but then you state this phrase here...."Israel as a whole therefore cannot bring itself to believe that Jesus is the Messiah". And WHY?? You answer this too when you say..."God has CAUSED national Israel to be partially hardened...". There you have it Mike!!!!! Here is the truth that I have been trying do get accross to you, and you typed it with your OWN hand. They CANNOT believe, because God CAUSED their heart to be heardened.

But if we leave your whole statement as is (using the word 'free') as you wrote it, what you are saying then, is they have been given ‘freewill’ ALL THIS time, and have CHOSEN the wrongly always, consistently, etc. Can you not see what you are saying here Mike?? Think about it for a while. For goodness sakes, PRAY on what you have written with your own hand. I rebuke myself for even telling you reread the top of this post, FOR YOU ALREADY SEE that they ALWAYS and CONSISTANTLY were REJECTING him. So ask yourself something now, “What is CAUSING them to choose this E V E R Y T I M E??? They are SINNERS, so left to THEMSELVES (without God opening eyes/ears/understanding), they will ALWAYS and CONSISTANTLY sin and choose the wrong. What I don’t understand is why you keep claiming that they had ‘freewill’ then. These Israelites are given freewill, as you say, but choose wrongly EVERYIME (consistently, always, etc.)???? Pray-tell, what are the chances of that!!! If looking at it this way, he is only FREE to choose wrongly EVERYTIME. He is only free to SIN. This is what I am trying to get across to you. We are ALL “accustomed to doing evil”. We are ALL sinners. It is when God comes closer to US (gives us eyes/ears) is when we come closer to HIM. Not the other way around.

I am now wandering how you came to know God Mike. Something had to happen! He had to do something TO you or FOR you or IN you FIRST to bring you to Him. Whether it be an experience like the Prodical Son, the loss of a family member, being brought very LOW, made abased, almost dying, etc. He brings us Mike, turns us, directs us, molds us, etc. We do not do this of ourselves. There are different ways that God brings a man to Him, depending on where that Man is in his life. But, as I said before, faith grows, there is a weaker faith and a stronger one. I don’t see how you can get THIS CLOSE to the truth and still claim “freewill”. Unless you are saying that the Israelites had ‘freewill’, but choose wrong EVERYTIME!!





And you and your scholars are disagreeing with scholars/writers such as….

Andrew Jukes, Steve Jones, E. H. Lake, John Wesley Hanson, Chaplain Ken Allen, A.A. Miner, T. J. Sawyer, C. R. Moor, O. F. Safford, A. St. John Chambre, Quillen Hamilton Shinn, Kenneth W. Eckerty, Dr. Loyal Hurley, Albert Jenke, Hosea Ballou, Dr. John van Schaik, Thomas B. Thayer, Rev. I. D. Williamson, Otis A. Skinner, E. E. Guild, Cecil J. Blay, Samuel Cox, Pastor David R. Baughman, Don Smith, T. Southwood Smith, Lee Salisbury, Asher Moore, Rev. S. Crane, J. M. Austin, George Rogers, Joseph E. Kirk, William C. Rebmann, Adlai Loudy, Leon A. Bynoe, James Coram, Clarence Jordan, Thomas Whittemore, among others.

Tell me Mike, does it impress you to see all these UR scholars and writers that I have listed??

I didn’t think so. So it doesn’t impress me either for you to list yours. I will tell you the secret of learning TRUTH in the bible when it comes to pastors, preachers, scholars, etc., and here it is: “TRUST NO ONE”. When studying the bible, the best way to approach ‘other mens’ reasonings is Just diligently read and study for YOURSELF and "WEIGH ALL", but know that just because someone of importance says something, does not mean it is truth.
Don't presume to tell me how to study the Bible. You are so far from the truth, I doubt that you will ever find it.


Quote:
For example, the following verses (Luk 1:33, Rom 1:25, Rom 9:5, Rom 11:36, 2Cor 11:31) have the Accusative PLURAL Masculine form of ‘aion’ and they are translated ‘forever’ in the KJV. Ask anyone (maybe even your scholars) if the SINGLE word ‘forever’ means “eternity” and most will tell you YES. So what pray-tell is the difference from what Alan Gomes says about the phrase “forever and ever” meaning ‘eternitiy’ and this ONE PLURAL word meaning ‘eternity’. I will ask you, the question. When you read the verses I listed, are you thinking about “eternity”?? If so, then know that they do NOT have the phrase “eis tous aionas ton aionon”, but just ONE PLURAL word for aion, and STILL are translated “forever” which is understood as eternity by most. Are you still thinking about eternity in these verses Mike? Your scholars cannot answer this nor the statement I posted to you in another thread, which was….
Luke 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His Kingdom will have no end. (Eternity is in view)

Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (Eternity is in view)

Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever Amen.. (Eternity is in view)

As already stated, the phrase forever and ever-to the ages of the ages-'eis tous aionas ton aionon' is, by agreement of the most respected scholars and Greek lexicographers, the most emphatic, the strongest way of stating eternity in the Greek language.
I have pointed out to you before that there are several occurrences of the phrase “age [SINGULAR] and age [SINGULAR]”. Again, if the phrase “unto the ages [PLURAL] of the ages [PLURAL]” EMPHATICALLY means ETERNITY as you say, then the SUNGULAR form “age to the age” (Heb 1:8) MUST emphatically mean “half way”, right?? Or maybe the SINGULAR/PLURAL form “age of the age(s)” (Eph 3:21) must emphatically mean three quarters of the way, right?
Tell me… what does the phrases with “age/age” and “age/ages” mean if ONLY the “plural/plural” form EMPHATICALLY means Eternal?????

Even the SINGULAR form of this word is translated ‘forever’ in some places. So the dilemma continues. You really need to jump in and do a thorough study of this word Mike. Don’t just blindly believer your scholars, or NOT EVEN MY scholars for that matter. Just do a good study on them. Or just answer all the questions I have posed about these words “aion” and “aionios”.[/quote]

There is no dilemma. Except for the uni's who are forced to deny that God's glory and reign are forever in order to deny that aionios means eternal, so that they can promote Universalism.

TWO verses, both of which use the same phrase 'eis tous aionas ton aionon'.

Rev 7:12 ''Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.''


Rev 20:10 ''And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The first verse is a doxology about the duration of the glory of God, which is forever and ever.



The second verse is about the duration of Satan's and the beast and the false prophet's torment using the exact same phrase as the other verse which describes the duration of God's glory. THE DURATION OF SATAN'S TORMENT IS FOREVER AND EVER.


To deny the eternal duration of the lake of fire, universalist are forced to deny the eternal duration of God's glory.



To deny that the Bible uses the word aionios for things of an eternal nature is foolish. Universalist's have to deny that it means eternal in order to hold to their heresy of universalism. I have already listed passages in another thread where aionios is used for the glory of God and the length of His rule, which is unending. And you just reject them and blaspheme God in the process by denying that His glory is eternal.

And no, I am not impressed with a bunch of heretic universalist scholars who have an agenda to promote universalism.


As for your continued denial of the free will of man, I have already done another thread on it, and I am not going to continue arguing about it here.

Last edited by Mike555; 06-26-2010 at 08:53 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2010, 08:43 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,698,982 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. That translation was my pastor's personal corrective translation of that verse. He had 5 years of Hebrew and ten years of Greek. And He knew what he was doing. His name was Robert B. Thieme Jr. of Berachah Church of Houston TX.



LOL, "personal corrective translation".





Fact remains, a certain translation is much less an issue than how the translation is placed into context.

Since there is only one context (love) then what we must learn is what Love does, even if we do not feel it.


What does love do? Does love correct even if it is trials of fire that does it, or does love punish to offer no redeeming value.


Well of course. love, wrath in love, judgment in love, justice in love, righteousness in love, God is love, corrects.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2010, 08:47 AM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
Reputation: 7507
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense. God can KNOW what will be but it has not been predetermined in our time line. More nonsense. The phrase is "believe ON Him" . . . which has nothing to do with this trivial concern over expressed belief. Your concept is based on a false and trivial concern over acknowledgment supposedly to satisfy some ego gratification need of God. Completely absurd. The God you believe in as YOU describe Him and His motives is an evil egomaniacal torturer.
To the contrary. God has predetermined in the divine decrees, which is based on His omniscience of all the facts concerning every decision that would ever be made by His creatures, the certain futurition of those things.

And as for your dismissal of the need to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, that demonstrates that you don't understand the issue in salvation and are therefore not saved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2010, 08:51 AM
 
20,354 posts, read 15,740,470 times
Reputation: 7507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
LOL, "personal corrective translation".


His own corrected translation. A better translation of the passage.


Fact remains, a certain translation is much less an issue than how the translation is placed into context.

Since there is only one context (love) then what we must learn is what Love does, even if we do not feel it.


What does love do? Does love correct even if it is trials of fire that does it, or does love punish to offer no redeeming value.


Well of course. love, wrath in love, judgment in love, justice in love, righteousness in love, God is love, corrects.
God's love does not prevent His justice from ordering into the lake of fire, all those who have died having rejected Christ as Savior.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top