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Old 06-29-2010, 09:56 AM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,734,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post


Highly, highly, highly, highly DIS-agree.

Jesus rebuked the religious for a reason, and that reason was their (lack of righteous) fruits. The Kingdom of God will be TAKEN FROM YOU and given to a nation BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF.

See also: Rich man/Lazarus story, and the sheep/goats deal. They were condemned based on their ACTIONS.

Blessings,
brian
Once a person has been saved through faith in Christ, his eternal salvation is secure. He cannot lose it for any reason whatsoever. He can lose eternal reward. But he cannot lose his eternal life.

Your eternal salvation is secure as of the initial moment of having received Christ as Savior. Salvation takes place in an instant. In a moment of time. It is a one time event. Once you have it, it is yours forever.

The condition of your spiritual life after you have been saved, is a different issue. The believer cannot stand still in the spritual life. At any given moment, the believer is either growing by advancing in his spiritual life through learning and applying Bible doctrine, or he is retreating from spiritual growth and moving toward reversionism through neglect of the word of God.

The believer will lose eternal reward as a result of failure to advance in the spiritual life. But he will not and cannot lose his eternal salvation.

Those who reject Christ as Savior are eternally condemned. But because Jesus already paid the penalty for their sins on the Cross, they cannot be judged on the basis of their sins. Those sins were already judged and cannot be judged again (Hebrews 10:10-12). Therefore, the unbeliever, is condemned on the basis of his works. God rejects human righteousness. He rejects the human righteousness of the believer, and He rejects the human righteousness of the unbeliever. The works of the believer that were produced from his human righteousness will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. Those works are described as 'wood, hay, and stubble.' (1 Cor 3:12-15; 2 Cor 5:10; Romans 14:10-12) On the other hand, the works of the believer that are produced while under the control of the Holy Spirit are divine good, and will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ as 'gold, silver, and precious stones.'

The works of the unbeliever become the basis by which he is judged and eternally condemned to the lake of fire. The unbeliever rejected the work of Christ on the Cross on his behalf, and so by default, he must rely on his own works, his own human righteousness, to save him. God totaly rejects all human righteousness (Isa 64:6, Titus 3:5). Therefore, the unbeliever will stand before Jesus at the Great White throne judgment and be judged according to his deeds. (Revelation 20:11-15). The unbeliever will spend eternity in the lake of fire on the basis of his works.

At the judgment of Tribulational unbelievers when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation, the unbelievers of the nations are condemned on the basis of their works. Again, their sins were already judged and cannot be judged again. During the Tribulation, there will much distress and as a result, the love of most people will grow cold. Unbelievers lives will be characterized by a lack of compassion as shown by Matthew 25:42-45. They will stand condemned on the basis of their human righteousness which will have manifested itself in a lack of compassion. They will be ordered by Jesus to depart into the eternal fire (Matthew 25:41,46). They rejected Christ as Savior and are judged and sentenced to the eternal fire on the basis of their deeds.

On the other hand, Tribulational believers will have shown compassion during the Tribulation. They are not saved on the basis of their works, but because they have believed in Christ. They will however, be rewarded on the basis of their works. That is, those works which are 'gold, silver, and precious stones.'
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:49 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,218,209 times
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[quote=Mike555;14788161]
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post

I already told you in the other thread boy, that because of your attitude, you have been given all the attention from me you are going to get.
What is it with this "boy" stuff? ...

He sounds like an angry redneck ... Not that there is anything wrong with being a redneck ... Just saying ...
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:35 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You foolishly think that God's love is going to save everybody. God's love saves nobody. God's love only motivated God to provide the means of salvation. It was the justice of God judicially imputing mans personal sins onto Christ on the Cross and judging those sins, that actually made savation possible. Failure to adjust to the justice of God in salvation through faith in Christ will result in eternity in the lake of fire.

Egad. God's love saves nobody? Not exactly how I see it.


Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Did Christ actually save anyone when He died? Or was it only a "possible" salvation?
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:49 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,734,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Egad. God's love saves nobody? Not exactly how I see it.


Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Did Christ actually save anyone when He died? Or was it only a "possible" salvation?
Originally Posted by Mike555
You foolishly think that God's love is going to save everybody. God's love saves nobody. God's love only motivated God to provide the means of salvation. It was the justice of God judicially imputing mans personal sins onto Christ on the Cross and judging those sins, that actually made savation possible. Failure to adjust to the justice of God in salvation through faith in Christ will result in eternity in the lake of fire.

From the moment Adam fell, all who placed their faith in the Messiah looking forward to the Cross, were saved as a result of the work of Christ on the Cross. Since the Cross, all who look back at the Cross are saved through faith in Christ. All who reject Christ are eternally lost.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:07 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Originally Posted by Mike555
You foolishly think that God's love is going to save everybody. God's love saves nobody. God's love only motivated God to provide the means of salvation. It was the justice of God judicially imputing mans personal sins onto Christ on the Cross and judging those sins, that actually made savation possible. Failure to adjust to the justice of God in salvation through faith in Christ will result in eternity in the lake of fire.
Yes I read that the first time.

Again: did Christ actually save anyone on the cross, or did He only make salvation "possible"? And if He only made it "possible", who actually saves us? If you say it is Christ who saves us, then why doesn't He save all?

And what the heck does "Failure to adjust to the justice of God in salvation through faith in Christ" mean? Is one saved by 'adjusting' to the justice of God?!? That's a new one to me.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,391,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post


Highly, highly, highly, highly DIS-agree.

Jesus rebuked the religious for a reason, and that reason was their (lack of righteous) fruits. The Kingdom of God will be TAKEN FROM YOU and given to a nation BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF.

See also: Rich man/Lazarus story, and the sheep/goats deal. They were condemned based on their ACTIONS.

Blessings,
brian


I'll agree with your disagreement, Brian!! And ditto,!!
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:59 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,734,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes I read that the first time.

Again: did Christ actually save anyone on the cross, or did He only make salvation "possible"? And if He only made it "possible", who actually saves us? If you say it is Christ who saves us, then why doesn't He save all?
This was and still is my Answer...

From the moment Adam fell, all who placed their faith in the Messiah looking forward to the Cross, were saved as a result of the work of Christ on the Cross. Since the Cross, all who look back at the Cross are saved through faith in Christ. All who reject Christ are eternally lost.

I'll add to it that the work of Christ on the Cross only makes salvation available to those who place their faith in Him. Salvation is contengent upon faith in Christ.

Quote:
And what the heck does "Failure to adjust to the justice of God in salvation through faith in Christ" mean? Is one saved by 'adjusting' to the justice of God?!? That's a new one to me.
Since the fall, man's point of contact with God is divine justice. Not love. God's love only motivated God to provide the means by which those who believe in Christ may be saved. Salvation and condemnation are both results of Divine justice. Receiving Christ as Savior results in adjusting to the justice of God. Rejection of Christ results in maladjustment to divine justice and eternal condemnation. Man can only enter into an eternal relationship with God by adjusting to God's justice through faith in Christ. God's love must be filtered through His justice.
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Old 07-01-2010, 03:20 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,218,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This was and still is my Answer...

From the moment Adam fell, all who placed their faith in the Messiah looking forward to the Cross, were saved as a result of the work of Christ on the Cross. Since the Cross, all who look back at the Cross are saved through faith in Christ. All who reject Christ are eternally lost.

I'll add to it that the work of Christ on the Cross only makes salvation available to those who place their faith in Him. Salvation is contengent upon faith in Christ.
The Hebrew people before the coming of Christ did not "look forward to the cross". They believed the messiah would come and make Israel the most powerful nation in the world, from which he would rule from the throne of David over all the other nations ...

Even Christs own disciples did not realize Christ would die on the cross until the very end. Christs coming to die on the cross was a mystery kept secret since the beginning, and was only revealed at the time of his actual death.


Quote:
Since the fall, man's point of contact with God is divine justice. Not love. God's love only motivated God to provide the means by which those who believe in Christ may be saved. Salvation and condemnation are both results of Divine justice. Receiving Christ as Savior results in adjusting to the justice of God. Rejection of Christ results in maladjustment to divine justice and eternal condemnation. Man can only enter into an eternal relationship with God by adjusting to God's justice through faith in Christ. God's love must be filtered through His justice.
What is justice without mercy? Cruelty ... And what is power and authority without love? It is tyranny ... Your post above says allot about your theology of condemnation and cruelty. Gods is Love, and true justice derives from Love and cannot be separated from it. Until you can undersatand this, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth. Justice will be done, because God will have mercy on all in the end. None deserve his mercy, and all will receive it.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:14 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,734,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The Hebrew people before the coming of Christ did not "look forward to the cross". They believed the messiah would come and make Israel the most powerful nation in the world, from which he would rule from the throne of David over all the other nations ...

Even Christs own disciples did not realize Christ would die on the cross until the very end. Christs coming to die on the cross was a mystery kept secret since the beginning, and was only revealed at the time of his actual death.


What is justice without mercy? Cruelty ... And what is power and authority without love? It is tyranny ... Your post above says allot about your theology of condemnation and cruelty. Gods is Love, and true justice derives from Love and cannot be separated from it. Until you can undersatand this, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth. Justice will be done, because God will have mercy on all in the end. None deserve his mercy, and all will receive it.
The Jews looked forward to the Cross. That means that they looked forward to the coming Messiah. From the moment of Adams fall, long before the Jewish race existed, God promised that a Messiah would come. Genesis 3:15. A picture of the Cross.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed (her seed is a reference to Jesus' virgin birth); He shall bruise you on the head (Christ's strategic victory over Satan on the Cross), And you shall bruise him on the heel.

When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, it was a picture of Christ on the Cross. Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. [7] So the people came to Moses and said, ''We have sinned, abcause we have spoken aganst the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us. '' And Moses interceded for the people. [8] Then the LORD said to Moses, ''Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he shall live.'' [9] And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it n the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

The standard represented the Cross. Bronze was a symbol for judgment. The serpent represented Christ bearing our sins. The serpent is associated with Satan. Jesus bearing the sins of the world was undergoing judgment. Therefore, He was represented by a serpent. Anyone of the Hebrews who had been bitten by a fiery serpent, if he simply looked at the raised standard (a picture of Christ raised up on the Cross), lived. A picture of believing in the Messiah for salvation.

The various animal sacrifices represented different aspects of soteriology. Hebrews 10:11 refers back to those animal sacrifices and relates them to Christ. ''And every priest stands daily ministering and offering trime after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; [12] but He (Jesus), having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat done at the right hand of God.

Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac on the alter was a type or picture of Christ on the cross.

Psalm 22 is a Messianic prophecy of Christ on the Cross.

Salvation has always been through faith in the Messiah. Therefore, those who lived before Christ came, looked forward in anticipation of the Messiah, who is Jesus Christ. They looked forward to the Cross.

God will indeed have justice. And that justice will see all who reject Christ as Savior in hell for all eternity. Just as the Scriptures declare.

Last edited by Mike555; 07-01-2010 at 06:25 PM..
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:25 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,218,209 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Jews looked forward to the Cross. That means that they looked forward to the coming Messiah. From the moment of Adams fall, long before the Jewish race existed, God promised that a Messiah would come. Genesis 3:15. A picture of the Cross.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed (her seed is a reference to Jesus' virgin birth); He shall bruise you on the head (Christ's strategic victory over Satan on the Cross), And you shall bruise him on the heel.

When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, it was a picture of Christ on the Cross. Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. [7] So the people came to Moses and said, ''We have sinned, abcause we have spoken aganst the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us. '' And Moses interceded for the people. [8] Then the LORD said to Moses, ''Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he shall live.'' [9] And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it n the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

The standard represented the Cross. Bronze was a symbol for judgment. The serpent represented Christ bearing our sins. The serpent is associated with Satan. Jesus bearing the sins of the world was undergoing judgment. Therefore, He was represented by a serpent. Anyone of the Hebrews who had been bitten by a fiery serpent, if he simply looked at the raised standard (a picture of Christ raised up on the Cross), lived. A picture of believing in the Messiah for salvation.

The various animal sacrifices represented different aspects of soteriology. Hebrews 10:11 refers back to those animal sacrifices and relates them to Christ. ''And every priest stands daily ministering and offering trime after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; [12] but He (Jesus), having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat done at the right hand of God.

Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac on the alter was a type or picture of Christ on the cross.

Psalm 22 is a Messianic prophecy of Christ on the Cross.

Salvation has always been through faith in the Messiah. Therefore, those who lived before Christ came, looked forward in anticipation of the Messiah, who is Jesus Christ. They looked forward to the Cross.

God will inded have justice. And that justice will see all who reject Christ as Savior in hell for all eternity. Just as the Scriptures declare.
Your sense of justice is infinitely cruel ... True justice, the justice of God, is tempered with mercy ... What you believe the scriptures teach will not change that.
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