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Old 06-15-2010, 05:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
It is NOT just about Israel! And it is NOT just about the Gentiles! It is about the UNIVERSE! Things in HEAVEN and EARTH!

The Jews were ONLY focused on themselves. The Gentiles have mostly been focused on themselves. They FORGET that the ENTIRE creation (ALL created things) are waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. It is MUCH, MUCH bigger than just a couple of people here and there!!

Here are MANY Old Testament verses that hint at the mystery.

GENESIS 12:3 In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.


PSALM 102:19-21 The Lord looked down from his sanctuary on high, from heaven he viewed the earth, to hear the groans of the prisoners and release those condemned to death.

PSALM 68:18 When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train.

PSALM 86:9 All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, 0 Lord; they will bring glory to your name.


PSALM 66:10-12 For you, 0 God, have proved us; You have refined us as silver is refined. You brought us into the net; You laid affliction on our backs. You have caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and water, but You brought us out to rich fulfillment.

2 SAMUEL 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

GENESIS 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. (KJV)

PSALM 145:3-17 Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom. .I will meditate on your wonderful works. They will tell of the power of your awesome works, and I will proclaim your great deeds. They will celebrate your abundant goodness ... The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. All you have made will praise you, 0 Lord ... They will tell of the glory of your kingdom and speak of your might, so that all men may know of your mighty acts...Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is faithful to all his promises and loving toward all he has made. The Lord upholds all those who fall ... The Lord is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.

ECCLESIASTES 3:14 Everything God does will endure forever.

ISAIAH 14:24, 27 The Lord Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand"... For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

ISAIAH 45:22-24 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, `In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.'" All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.


LAMENTATIONS 3:31-33 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. (NIV) Though he may punish cruelly, yet he will have compassion in the fullness of his love; he does not willingly afflict or punish any mortal man.


HABAKKUK 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
The passage in question concerns the restoration of Israel during the Millennium. Honest research will bear that out. It is a misapplication of the passage to attempt to use it to justifiy the erroneous conclusions of those who espouse the eventual salvation of all men, that all men will be saved.

It is of course expected that those of the Universalist persuasion will not listen. I posted this for the purpose of clarifying the meaning of the passage for the benefit of whoever will listen so that they might not be deceived by those who continually distort its meaning to something that is unscriptural.


With regard to Lamentations 3, it deals with the afflictions of the nation Israel. Jeremiah is conveying that he shares those afflictions. It has nothing to do with the false teaching of the eventual salvation of all men.

Here is a resource to that effect...

Bible Query from Lamentations

I am not going to bother with the other passages as I am not wasting my time debating, and is not the purpose of the thread.

I will not be listened to, but I will say it anyway. Every single verse, every single passage that Universalism is based on, has been misunderstood by the Universalist. The Universalist who would be honest with himself would do well to set aside his aversion to the eternal punishment of the believer which the Scriptures declare, and honestly study what the word of God says.



I know that further replies to you will serve no purpose, so this is my final comment to you.
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Old 06-15-2010, 06:01 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,109,556 times
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Acts 3:21 says, “whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.”

This is a reference to the future period when God will restore the earth to its original condition which existed before the fall of Adam and Eve.

We see this reflected in Paul’s comments as well.
Rom. 8:20-21, “For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”

1 Cor. 15:25-26 which says, “For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.”

I don't believe it is talking about Israel.
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Old 06-15-2010, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The passage in question concerns the restoration of Israel during the Millennium. Honest research will bear that out. It is a misapplication of the passage to attempt to use it to justifiy the erroneous conclusions of those who espouse the eventual salvation of all men, that all men will be saved.

It is of course expected that those of the Universalist persuasion will not listen. I posted this for the purpose of clarifying the meaning of the passage for the benefit of whoever will listen so that they might not be deceived by those who continually distort its meaning to something that is unscriptural.


With regard to Lamentations 3, it deals with the afflictions of the nation Israel. Jeremiah is conveying that he shares those afflictions. It has nothing to do with the false teaching of the eventual salvation of all men.

Here is a resource to that effect...

Bible Query from Lamentations

I am not going to bother with the other passages as I am not wasting my time debating, and is not the purpose of the thread.

I will not be listened to, but I will say it anyway. Every single verse, every single passage that Universalism is based on, has been misunderstood by the Universalist. The Universalist who would be honest with himself would do well to set aside his aversion to the eternal punishment of the believer which the Scriptures declare, and honestly study what the word of God says.



I know that further replies to you will serve no purpose, so this is my final comment to you.
Obviously, not even your own "brethren" agree with you, so........

Types and shadows of something MUCH BIGGER.
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Old 06-15-2010, 06:11 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
Acts 3:21 says, “whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.”

This is a reference to the future period when God will restore the earth to its original condition which existed before the fall of Adam and Eve.

We see this reflected in Paul’s comments as well.
Rom. 8:20-21, “For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”

1 Cor. 15:25-26 which says, “For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.”

I don't believe it is talking about Israel.
Yes, it does refer to Israel. It relates back to Acts 1:6 as shown.
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:53 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,145 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus did NOT say that the kingdom of God is 'within you.' That is an improper translation. Again, He was speaking to unbelieving Pharisees. The Greek word is 'ENTOS', and when used in conjunction with a plural noun, means ''among'' or ''in the midst of''. In Luke 17:21, ENTOS is used with ''you'', which is a pronoun.
The only other place this word "entos" is used in the NT is in Matthew 23:26

"First clean the inside (ENTOS) of the cup and the
dish, and then the outside (EKTOS) also will be clean."

Obviously, this means 'inside' as opposed to 'outside' (EKTOS). The LXX has 8 occurences of this word.


1 Maccabees 4:48 (NRSV) says "They rebuilt the sanctuary and the
interior (ENTOS) of the temple." This means 'inside'.


Psalm 39:3 (NRSV; 38:4 in LXX) says, "my heart became hot within
(ENTOS) me." This obviously means inside and 'me' is a pronoun.


Psalm 103:1 (NRSV; 102:1 in LXX) says, "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and
all that is within (ENTOS) me." Again 'me' is a pronoun.


Psalm 109:22 (NRSV; 108:22 in LXX) says, "my heart is pierced within
(ENTOS) me." Again 'me' is a pronoun.


Song of Solomon 1:10 (NJB) says, "Your cheeks show fair between their
pendants and your neck within (ENTOS) its necklesses." Your/pronoun


Sirach 19:26 (NRSV) says, "There is the villain bowed down in mourning,
but inwardly (TA ENTOS) he is full of deceit."


Isaiah 16:11 (NRSV) says, "...and my inmost being (TA ENTOS)..."



Daniel 10:16 says, "at the sight of you my inmost being (TA ENTOS) is
changed in me (EN EMOI)"
The consistent biblical sense of ENTOS, as seen in the nine other
occurances of the word in the Bible, is "within, inside". I have also check contemporary Greek writings and it claims the same thing.

The reasoning of why one makes the arguement of this word meaning "among" or "in the midst" is answered in the post itself. This here is the reason that drives one to strive for a different meaning of the word.

"Again, He was speaking to unbelieving Pharisees."

It makes no sense to them that Jesus would say the "kingdom is within you" to a Pharasee.
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:54 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
The only other place this word "entos" is used in the NT is in Matthew 23:26

"First clean the inside (ENTOS) of the cup and the
dish, and then the outside (EKTOS) also will be clean."

Obviously, this means 'inside' as opposed to 'outside' (EKTOS). The LXX has 8 occurences of this word.


1 Maccabees 4:48 (NRSV) says "They rebuilt the sanctuary and the
interior (ENTOS) of the temple." This means 'inside'.


Psalm 39:3 (NRSV; 38:4 in LXX) says, "my heart became hot within
(ENTOS) me." This obviously means inside and 'me' is a pronoun.


Psalm 103:1 (NRSV; 102:1 in LXX) says, "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and
all that is within (ENTOS) me." Again 'me' is a pronoun.


Psalm 109:22 (NRSV; 108:22 in LXX) says, "my heart is pierced within
(ENTOS) me." Again 'me' is a pronoun.


Song of Solomon 1:10 (NJB) says, "Your cheeks show fair between their
pendants and your neck within (ENTOS) its necklesses." Your/pronoun


Sirach 19:26 (NRSV) says, "There is the villain bowed down in mourning,
but inwardly (TA ENTOS) he is full of deceit."


Isaiah 16:11 (NRSV) says, "...and my inmost being (TA ENTOS)..."



Daniel 10:16 says, "at the sight of you my inmost being (TA ENTOS) is
changed in me (EN EMOI)"
The consistent biblical sense of ENTOS, as seen in the nine other
occurances of the word in the Bible, is "within, inside". I have also check contemporary Greek writings and it claims the same thing.

The reasoning of why one makes the arguement of this word meaning "among" or "in the midst" is answered in the post itself. This here is the reason that drives one to strive for a different meaning of the word.

"Again, He was speaking to unbelieving Pharisees."

It makes no sense to them that Jesus would say the "kingdom is within you" to a Pharasee.

These two resources have some information about the use of the word Entos.

Kingdom Among You (Forerunner Commentary) :: Bible Tools

http://www.voiceofjesus.org/kingdom_not_within.html

Last edited by Mike555; 06-15-2010 at 09:23 PM..
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:24 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
It makes no sense to them that Jesus would say the "kingdom is within you" to a Pharasee.
Not only does it make no sense to an ETer, but Jesus actually contradicts what the ETer's would have you believe it says. Let's read it again:

Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Jesus clearly said "within you". Not only did he say "within you", but he ruled out the possibility of it being anywhere else but "within you". Jesus said the Kingdom does not come with observation, nor is it to be found "here" or "there" (outside of them), but rather it is to be found "within". Now, let's back up one verse and put it into context:

Luk 17:20 And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation;

Does that remind you of what Jesus told Nicodemus? Look here:

Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

The Kingdom is spiritual and is the working of the Holy Spirit "within". Dispensationalist's (modern day Pharisees) deny this fundamental teaching of Scripture and the work of the Spirit.

Jesus is speaking of the new birth. That is the Kingdom "within" that will "come" upon them. Yes, even the Pharisees, in time, will experience the rebirth of the Spirit. Look here:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is clear proof that all (including the Pharisees, the worst of the lot) will one day be born of the Spirit. Look here again:

Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Not even the Pharisees will deny it for ever. When the ETer's are born of the Spirit, neither will they.
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,707,770 times
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I agree here that Acts 3:21 does not refer to universalism, it speaks about the restoration of God's kingdom on earth as I understand it

however there are other verses that teach the salvation of all creation quite plainly (Col. 1:20 e.g.)
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:47 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,554,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
however there are other verses that teach the salvation of all creation quite plainly (Col. 1:20 e.g.)
We either believe that His will is sovereign or not - too much scripture to fight against concerning the matter.
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:28 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,145 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Not only does it make no sense to an ETer, but Jesus actually contradicts what the ETer's would have you believe it says. Let's read it again:

Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Jesus clearly said "within you". Not only did he say "within you", but he ruled out the possibility of it being anywhere else but "within you". Jesus said the Kingdom does not come with observation, nor is it to be found "here" or "there" (outside of them), but rather it is to be found "within". Now, let's back up one verse and put it into context:

Luk 17:20 And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation;

Does that remind you of what Jesus told Nicodemus? Look here:

Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

The Kingdom is spiritual and is the working of the Holy Spirit "within". Dispensationalist's (modern day Pharisees) deny this fundamental teaching of Scripture and the work of the Spirit.

Jesus is speaking of the new birth. That is the Kingdom "within" that will "come" upon them. Yes, even the Pharisees, in time, will experience the rebirth of the Spirit. Look here:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is clear proof that all (including the Pharisees, the worst of the lot) will one day be born of the Spirit. Look here again:

Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Not even the Pharisees will deny it for ever. When the ETer's are born of the Spirit, neither will they.
Very well said
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