U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-05-2010, 12:29 PM
 
37,827 posts, read 25,558,792 times
Reputation: 5881

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Super.

Are you going to answer my question?

If you believe the Bible to be as you yourself describe it to be it would then naturally follow that the Bible has much to say about God. I'm trying to zero in on where it is that your views part company with the traditional orthodox view - as it pertains to very plainly and easily understood common understanding of crucial Biblical doctrines.
Well tigetmax, my brother . . . I could continue to guess about the particular crucial sticking points you want me to address. I took the "big ones" head on I thought. Since the bible is 66 books (or more) there is a lot of material that has been grossly misunderstood as revealing God's nature(when it does not) . . . or as revealing proscriptions for our earthly lives (when it does not) . . . or potentially myriad misinterpretations of the SPIRITUAL import for the evolution and development of our Spirits (consciousnesses) . . . (NOT how we are to establish our culture, relationship roles, day-to day conduct of our physical lives, etc.). The idea that anything that applied to an ancient culture should be adopted in a modern civilization with vastly different physical and social parameters is ludicrous. So the potential scope of your seemingly simple question is far broader than you anticipate, I believe. Sorry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-05-2010, 01:22 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,405,324 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Well tigetmax, my brother . . . I could continue to guess about the particular crucial sticking points you want me to address. I took the "big ones" head on I thought. Since the bible is 66 books (or more) there is a lot of material that has been grossly misunderstood as revealing God's nature(when it does not) . . . or as revealing proscriptions for our earthly lives (when it does not) . . . or potentially myriad misinterpretations of the SPIRITUAL import for the evolution and development of our Spirits (consciousnesses) . . . (NOT how we are to establish our culture, relationship roles, day-to day conduct of our physical lives, etc.). The idea that anything that applied to an ancient culture should be adopted in a modern civilization with vastly different physical and social parameters is ludicrous. So the potential scope of your seemingly simple question is far broader than you anticipate, I believe. Sorry.
Virtually anything can be analogically simplified. If your views are vastly too complex to be generally understood, ultimately, what good are they? While they may bring personal satisfaction, in the final analysis, that's all they ever really could do. This would make you (and whomever else you might be affiliated with) the solitary "Gnostic" interpreters of scripture. If such be the case, why waste time debating these issues in a web forum?

If such is not the case, why not reach into your understanding of scripture/Chistianity and pull out one or two examples of how your view differs from the traditional orthodox Christian view? I would be looking for "major" doctrinal disagreements such as the issue of the virgin birth or the divinity of Christ etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
"The idea that anything that applied to an ancient culture should be adopted in a modern civilization with vastly different physical and social parameters is ludicrous."
Such as:
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 04:27 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,451,025 times
Reputation: 5148
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Super.

Are you going to answer my question?

If you believe the Bible to be as you yourself describe it to be it would then naturally follow that the Bible has much to say about God. I'm trying to zero in on where it is that your views part company with the traditional orthodox view - as it pertains to very plainly and easily understood common understanding of crucial Biblical doctrines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Well tigetmax, my brother . . . I could continue to guess about the particular crucial sticking points you want me to address. I took the "big ones" head on I thought. Since the bible is 66 books (or more) there is a lot of material that has been grossly misunderstood as revealing God's nature(when it does not) . . . or as revealing proscriptions for our earthly lives (when it does not) . . . or potentially myriad misinterpretations of the SPIRITUAL import for the evolution and development of our Spirits (consciousnesses) . . . (NOT how we are to establish our culture, relationship roles, day-to day conduct of our physical lives, etc.). The idea that anything that applied to an ancient culture should be adopted in a modern civilization with vastly different physical and social parameters is ludicrous. So the potential scope of your seemingly simple question is far broader than you anticipate, I believe. Sorry.
To incorporate the old culture and the new is really the ideal resolve in order to arrive at the intended culmination of "God's Divine Plan"...as demonstrated by the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament Gospels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Virtually anything can be analogically simplified. If your views are vastly too complex to be generally understood, ultimately, what good are they? While they may bring personal satisfaction, in the final analysis, that's all they ever really could do. This would make you (and whomever else you might be affiliated with) the solitary "Gnostic" interpreters of scripture. If such be the case, why waste time debating these issues in a web forum?

If such is not the case, why not reach into your understanding of scripture/Chistianity and pull out one or two examples of how your view differs from the traditional orthodox Christian view? I would be looking for "major" doctrinal disagreements such as the issue of the virgin birth or the divinity of Christ etc...



Such as:
Three basic layouts dominate the theme of God's Love:

1) Paradise on earth...(out of his love)
2) Paradise lost...(out of man's obstinacy)
3) Paradise restored (culmination of his love)

These three leaves no room for eternal damnation/hell for his children who were finitely created but that the off-springs will continue to "HAVE DOMINION ON EARTH".

Now, the subject of the rebellious angels/deceivers are something that is beyond my scope (immortal)...therefore...should not be subjected to mortal contention.

Peace!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 04:53 PM
 
37,827 posts, read 25,558,792 times
Reputation: 5881
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Virtually anything can be analogically simplified. If your views are vastly too complex to be generally understood, ultimately, what good are they? While they may bring personal satisfaction, in the final analysis, that's all they ever really could do. This would make you (and whomever else you might be affiliated with) the solitary "Gnostic" interpreters of scripture. If such be the case, why waste time debating these issues in a web forum?
I AM content, tigetmax . . . but I do not consider it a waste of my time to debate here. Iam making my certainty and contentment availabel to any others God might call to the same understanding. I have no illusions that my debating will achieve anything on its own. My beliefs are scientifically rigorous and scholarly . . .but not too complex, tigetmax. They are, however, founded on an entirely different paradigm . . , which renders them incompatible with the rationales typically employed by Bibleanists and Churchianists. I do NOT believe in anything supernatural or magical whatsoever! Everything I believe is founded on solid science. The fact that I eventually ended up reaching the same overall conclusions that you and others have in Christianity simply solidifies my certainty that the TRUTH resides in Christ. (Since I believe our reality is embedded in God's consciousness . . . it is not impossible that He could simply alter His thoughts and achieve some of the things magic believers believe He did. But such ideas are not central to my belief system.)

I do not believe the bible is organized in a linear time schema (they simply did not think that way back then) . . . nor is it necessarily in any way historical or literal or factual in the sense that so many fundies and others approach reading it so simplistically. It is for SPIRITUAL edification . . . not a history book or a science book or any other such tome. The bible and other documents are a record of the evolution of our spiritual understanding as it manifests from the template that God has written into the DNA code for our brain. We accept that DNA contains code sequences for all sorts of our physical features . . . but we seem to ignore that it must also contain codes for our spiritual features. Since I KNOW God exists and has placed those designs within the DNA . . . I know that these recordings are merely the "spiritual fossils" of our evolution of understanding about God . . . NOT the fully developed ones. We have access to more evolved understanding and it is emerging as we speak in consciousnesses throughout the world guided by the LIVING Word of God . . . the Holy Spirit of Christ . . . NOT stagnated in the primitive renderings and understanding of our ancient ancestors.

AS you can see . . it is based on a totally different paradigm based in science and theology.
Quote:
If such is not the case, why not reach into your understanding of scripture/Chistianity and pull out one or two examples of how your view differs from the traditional orthodox Christian view? I would be looking for "major" doctrinal disagreements such as the issue of the virgin birth or the divinity of Christ etc...
Virginity . . . because of its physical nature . . . is wholly irrelevant to the SPIRITUAL "specialness" of Jesus. What one believes about it is of no consequence, IMO. I am completely convinced that Jesus' consciousness is IDENTICAL to God's and that their identity resides in the consciousness of God that IS the Holy Spirit. THAT is the Divinity they share. God the Father is still far more than Jesus who is still the Son of God. Jesus' body and human consciousness were distinct from God . . . and upon His death and rebirth as Spirit His human consciousness remains in our collective human consciousness as our Comforter . . . the Holy Spirit. Since all three "forms" of consciousness are IDENTICAL . . . they are ONE and Divine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 06:24 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,405,324 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Virginity . . . because of its physical nature . . . is wholly irrelevant to the spiritual "specialness" of Jesus. What one believes about it is of no consequence, IMO. I am completely convinced that Jesus' consciousness is identical to God's and that their identity resides in the consciousness of God that is the Holy Spirit. That is the Divinity theyshare. God the Father is still far more than Jesus who is still the Son of God. Jesus' body and human consciousness were distinct from God . . . and upon His death and rebirth as Spirit His human consciousness remains in our collective human consciousness as our Comforter . . . the Holy Spirit. Since all three "forms" of consciousness areidentical . . . they areoneand Divine.
Do you believe the Biblical accounts relating to the virgin birth? Was Christ, in actuality, born of a virgin?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 07:00 PM
 
37,827 posts, read 25,558,792 times
Reputation: 5881
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Do you believe the Biblical accounts relating to the virgin birth? Was Christ, in actuality, born of a virgin?
Yes . . . I personally happen to believe it . . . but it is irrelevant . . . NOT a central or even important aspect of Christianity, IMO. It is also an ambiguous area that is a difficult exegesis dependent upon the definition of "virgin" and is hard to justify without appeal to magic (even though parthenogenesis and hermaphrodites are found in nature . . . as are various combinations).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 07:17 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,451,025 times
Reputation: 5148
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Yes . . . I personally happen to believe it . . . but it is irrelevant . . . NOT a central or even important aspect of Christianity, IMO. It is also an ambiguous area that is a difficult exegesis dependent upon the definition of "virgin" and is hard to justify without appeal to magic (even though parthenogenesis and hermaphrodites are found in nature . . . as are various combinations).
Oh, But it is! DNA is of utmost importance in our belief that "The Messiah" is sinless as his main attribute. The fall of Adam have excluded mankind from bringing this into fruition. A sinful nature cannot bring salvation from sin period.

It's beyond my scope to answer as to how God performed this miracle...but I trust his omniscient love...hence, "Virgin" IS literal to my faith (no religion involved).

"How could this be since I've known no man...?" was Mary's question...

Peace my friend!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 07:57 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,405,324 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I do not believe the bible is organized in a linear time schema (they simply did not think that way back then) . . . nor is it necessarily in any way historical or literal or factual in the sense that so many fundies and others approach reading it so simplistically. It is for spiritual edification . . . not a history book or a science book or any other such tome.
Genesis: "In the beginning..."

Revelation: "I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last..."

Perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but this all strikes me as being rather linear.

What would account for all of the scientific archeological evidence that would appear to verify Biblical accounts? All the Old Testament and Gospels are saturated with historical narratives. While I would agree that the Bible is certainly much more than a history book, the history is most certainly linear and in such preponderance so as to make your assertion here, well, extraordinary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I do not believe in anything supernatural or magical whatsoever! Everything I believe is founded on solid science.
The Bible contains some pretty fantastic accounts of supernatural events. You have also expressed your belief in the virgin birth.

What gives?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 08:23 PM
 
37,827 posts, read 25,558,792 times
Reputation: 5881
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Genesis: "In the beginning..."

Revelation: "I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last..."

Perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but this all strikes me as being rather linear.

What would account for all of the scientific archeological evidence that would appear to verify Biblical accounts? All the Old Testament and Gospels are saturated with historical narratives. While I would agree that the Bible is certainly much more than a history book, the history is most certainly linear and in such preponderance so as to make your assertion here, well, extraordinary.



The Bible contains some pretty fantastic accounts of supernatural events. You have also expressed your belief in the virgin birth.

What gives?
Identifying specific "events" has nothinng to do with linearly thinking about them and organizing them in linear order. Even today many Latin American countries still think circularly in terms of "events" . . .not linear time frames. One American company I consulted with had a terrible time with their Brazilian counterpart because they would commit to a delivery schedule for a quantity of parts . . . but the Brazilians never worried about or even considered the actual delivery date to be important as long as they delivered the quantity requested (the "event"). It is a very different event-oriented way of using time.

Nothing is supernatural . . . but since I believe that the universal field that establishes our reality and all its "laws and features science uses to understand it IS God's consciousness . . . it is completely consistent with "nature" that He could simply alter His "thoughts" to achieve things not normally possible. I do not believe He will do so, however . . . having given us Dominion . . . because that would be going back on His word.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2010, 08:58 PM
 
37,827 posts, read 25,558,792 times
Reputation: 5881
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
What would account for all of the scientific archeological evidence that would appear to verify Biblical accounts? All the Old Testament and Gospels are saturated with historical narratives. While I would agree that the Bible is certainly much more than a history book, the history is most certainly linear and in such preponderance so as to make your assertion here, well, extraordinary.
I will not debate your fables with you, tigetmax . . . they are NOT part of the pure Gospel message . . . and therefore irrelevant. Sorry tigetmax . . . the literal interpretation and belief in the bible as historical fact , especially for the fables and metaphors for our spiritual "education" as a species is preposterous . . . no matter how many earthly historical events you find and try to interpolate them into the bible stories. The bible is for SPIRITUAL edification, period.
Quote:
The Bible contains some pretty fantastic accounts of supernatural events. You have also expressed your belief in the virgin birth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
DNA is of utmost importance in our belief that "The Messiah" is sinless as his main attribute. The fall of Adam have excluded mankind from bringing this into fruition. A sinful nature cannot bring salvation from sin period.
The original sin nonsense is a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the Eden lesson as the basis for realizing that our behaviors and urges are not all good . . . i.e., knowledge of good and evil, period. NONE of us have any sin until we act in unloving ways and sin KNOWING good from evil.

There would be no hope for any of us if what you believe about our sinful nature were true. Jesus overcame His sinful human nature completely and achieved perfect resonance with God's consciousness. Fortunately . . . we don't have to achieve perfection because Jesus provides the connection to God's consciousness and we need only achieve some harmonic resonance with His consciousness in "love of God and each other."

Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-05-2010 at 10:01 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top