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Old 07-05-2010, 08:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry tigetmax . . . the literal interpretation and belief in the bible as historical fact , especially for the fables and metaphors for our spiritual "education" as a species is preposterous . . . no matter how many earthly historical events you find and try to interpolate them into the bible stories. The bible is for SPIRITUAL edification, period.Jesus was sinless because He did not sin, period. I will not debate your fables with you, tigetmax . . . they are NOT part of the pure Gospel message . . . and therefore irrelevant. The original sin nonsense is a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the Eden lesson as the basis for realizing that our behaviors and urges are not all good . . . i.e., knowledge of good and evil, period. NONE of us have any sin until we act in unloving ways and sin KNOWING good from evil.

There would be no hope for any of us if what you believe about our sinful nature were true. Jesus overcame His sinful human nature completely and achieved perfect resonance with God's consciousness. Fortunately . . . we don't have to achieve perfection because Jesus provides the connection to God's consciousness and we need only achieve some harmonic resonance with His consciousness in "love of God and each other."
You've incorporated tigetmax and ans57 OPS into one and address them as one in your rebuttal...
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:40 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,380 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It wasn't that he hoped for the resurrection and JUDGEMENT of the unjust, in that they both coincided at exactly the same time, and was one event, and in that event, he, as an Israelite, was to be justified for his faith and receive his longed for incorruptible body.
So, in other words, you're saying he was selfish and really didn't give a rip about others, and he was just looking forward to his own reward. How sad....sounds so much like some people who are glad to be saved and think others will burn for eternity and aren't really that concerned about it.

Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 07-05-2010 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:51 PM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
You've incorporated tigetmax and ans57 OPS into one and address them as one in your rebuttal...
Sorry ans57 . . . my bad. The precepts and doctrines of men that profess to understand and explain God's motives in the fables and depictions in the bible are almost universally wrong . . . because they proceed from a false understanding of God's true nature and relationship to His creations. Anything BUT a demanding Kingly or Ruler relationship with God was unthinkable for our primitive ancestors. So they had to concoct (based on this "Kinglyness") explanations for what seemed inexplicable . . . expulsion from Eden, Noah's Ark, etc..

Commands, punishments, wrath, egotistical concerns about glory, holiness, etc. etc. were the ONLY cognitive concepts of God available to them. Eden was a fable about the beginning of consciousness and the requirement of every single one of us to learn to distinguish between the good and evil urges and desires of our animal bodies. There is nothing built-in to provide that distinction. ALL responses to its inner urges are "good" to an animal. BUT . . . once we KNOW the difference we are then and only then capable of sin (by ignoring the distinction and responding to our urges anyway).
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Old 07-06-2010, 05:43 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,397,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The bible is for SPIRITUAL edification, period.
The original sin nonsense is a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the Eden lesson as the basis for realizing that our behaviors and urges are not all good . . . i.e., knowledge of good and evil, period. None of us have any sin until we act in unloving ways and sin knowing good from evil
.
I Thank for your timely and patient responses to my various questions. I do believe we've progressed to the point where my curiosity has been satisfied.

Sincerely, thanks again!
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:15 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I will not debate your fables with you, tigetmax . . . they are NOT part of the pure Gospel message . . . and therefore irrelevant. Sorry tigetmax . . . the literal interpretation and belief in the bible as historical fact , especially for the fables and metaphors for our spiritual "education" as a species is preposterous . . . no matter how many earthly historical events you find and try to interpolate them into the bible stories. The bible is for SPIRITUAL edification, period.
The original sin nonsense is a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the Eden lesson as the basis for realizing that our behaviors and urges are not all good . . . i.e., knowledge of good and evil, period. NONE of us have any sin until we act in unloving ways and sin KNOWING good from evil.

There would be no hope for any of us if what you believe about our sinful nature were true. Jesus overcame His sinful human nature completely and achieved perfect resonance with God's consciousness. Fortunately . . . we don't have to achieve perfection because Jesus provides the connection to God's consciousness and we need only achieve some harmonic resonance with His consciousness in "love of God and each other."
And with what you have posted in the last few posts, anyone with a lick of sense can see that you worship a little (g) god, and not the true God who has revealed Himself in the Bible. The Jesus you claim to know and follow is another Jesus. Not the real Jesus.

You are one of many who is under strong delusion. And it seems that you will remain so. You are entrenched deeply in the muck and mire of Satan's cosmic doctrines, and a false teacher of those cosmic doctrines.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:44 PM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And with what you have posted in the last few posts, anyone with a lick of sense can see that you worship a little (g) god, and not the true God who has revealed Himself in the Bible. The Jesus you claim to know and follow is another Jesus. Not the real Jesus.

You are one of many who is under strong delusion. And it seems that you will remain so. You are entrenched deeply in the muck and mire of Satan's cosmic doctrines, and a false teacher of those cosmic doctrines.
There IS only one God and one Jesus . . . that you believe nonsense and magical tomfoolery about them along with evil descriptions of God's motivations and desires for us . . . is your problem . . . not mine. No matter what you believe . . . there is still only one God and He is real. There is scientific rationale and explanations for His existence and I have encountered His beautiful love and acceptance completely devoid of the negative and evil human weaknesses you believe to be part of His nature. God is love. Jesus is one with the Father and they are love in their Holy Spirit. They do not remotely possess the evil human weaknesses you believe about them in your Biblical delusions under the veil of ignorance and superstition.

The Satanic and evil beliefs are all yours!

Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-06-2010 at 03:44 PM..
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:23 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And with what you have posted in the last few posts, anyone with a lick of sense can see that you worship a little (g) god, and not the true God who has revealed Himself in the Bible. The Jesus you claim to know and follow is another Jesus. Not the real Jesus.

You are one of many who is under strong delusion. And it seems that you will remain so. You are entrenched deeply in the muck and mire of Satan's cosmic doctrines, and a false teacher of those cosmic doctrines.

I always find it interesting when people use 2 Th 2:10 ... I honestly think that many people do not really even understand this verse.

What is "the love of the truth" ... ?

Well the question is who is "the truth"?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


The love of the truth is the love of Christ. It is the love which Christ demonstrated when he walked among us ... The love which he taught, which is the love of ones neighbor as one self, as well as the love of ones enemies. This is the very same love which is described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:4 ...



So we see that those to whom God sends great delusion are those who do not have this love in their hearts, but only provide lip service to Christ. Those who are in fact the wicked servants that Christ described ...

So lets see how Christ described the wicked servants ...


Mat 18:23-32
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.



And ...



Luk 19:12-27
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.



So the wicked servants are people who, though they have been forgiven their sins and debt, refuse to forgive others their debts, and seek their condemnation and judgment. Also the wicked servants believe God to be an Austere man or being and fear him because of it. The word Austere in the Greek is austēros ...


austēros -
1) of mind and manners: harsh, rough, rigid

Main Entry: aus·tere
Pronunciation: \ȯ-ˈstir also -ˈster\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin austerus, from Greek austēros harsh, severe; akin to Greek hauos dry — more at sere
Date: 14th century
1 a : stern and cold in appearance or manner b : somber, grave <an austere critic>
2 : morally strict : ascetic
3 : markedly simple or unadorned <an austere office> <an austere style of writing>
4 : giving little or no scope for pleasure <austere diets>
5 of a wine : having the flavor of acid or tannin predominant over fruit flavors usually indicating a capacity for aging


The wicked servants will not forgive others, but condemn others and judge others even though they have been forgiven. And they live in fear of God as an angry and rough, or cold and strict dictator. They believe God is this way and so they are themselves this way, cold and strict, harsh and stern, judgmental and ruling/living in condemnation over the world.

In no way are the wicked servants described as being too loving, or too forgiving of others, or believing that God is too kind or loving towards humanity. In no way are the wicked servant described as believing that God will have all people to be saved, and is in fact the savior of all people, as the scritpures plainly state. In fact the wicked servants are by the description of Christ, the very opposite ...

Now it is important to note that Christ specifically stated that God was "kind to the unthankful and the evil", but these people do not really believe that. They believe god is austere and will condemn the "unthankful and the evil" for ever, which of course is infinitely opposite of being kind to them ...

Of course this is a picture of the Pharisees in Christs time, who believed themselves elect and saved, but all others damned and stood in hypocritical judgment over all others. It is so interesting to note that the pharisees, like modern day hell fire and brimstone fundamentalist Christians, believed that most people on earth would be condemned by God to everlasting torment after they died.


Josephus wrote concerning the pharisees that ...

Quote:
"that every soul is imperishable, but that only those of the righteous pass into another body, while those of the wicked are, on the contrary, punished with eternal torment(aidion timorion)" -Josephus Wars 2.8.14

"they hold the belief that an immortal strength belongs to souls, and that there are beneath the earth punishments and rewards for those who in life devoted themselves to virtue or vileness, and that eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion) is appointed for the latter, but the possibility of returning to life for the former" -Josephus Ant. 18.1.3
Now when Christ spoke to the pharisees about judgment, he never once used any one of the phrases they used when referring to their doctrine of Eternal torment. According to Jospehus and Philo, the words that the pharisees used were "thanaton athanaton","eirgmon aidion","aidion timorion","thanaton ateleuteton", but Christ never used these phrases to describe judgment, neither are they found anywhere in the new or old testament. Instead Christ used "aionion kolasin" ...

I digress ...

I contend that it is in fact the doctrine of Eternal Torment that is the "great delusion" which God sent. And it is the leaven of the pharisees which Christ did refer to ... This doctrine is preferred by people like the pharisees because it strengthens their own elitist and self righteous view of their personal existence over most others in the world around them. It also quenches their thirst for revenge against their enemies, and supports their agendas for power and domination of others they would seek to put under themselves and rule over. Those who would stand between God and mankind. And it has has been proven throughout the past 1700 years that the doctrine leads to war, mass-murder, religious and ethnic cleansing and genocide, torture, etc ...




Selah ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-06-2010 at 03:45 PM..
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:39 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,416,374 times
Reputation: 5146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I always find it interesting when people use 2 Th 2:10 ... I honestly think that many people do not really even understand this verse.

What is "the love of the truth" ... ?

Well the question is who is "the truth"?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


The love of the truth is the love of Christ. It is the love which Christ demonstrated when he walked among us ... The love which he taught, which is the love of ones neighbor as one self, as well as the love of ones enemies. This is the very same love which is described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:4 ...



So we see that those whom God sends great delusion are those who do not have this love in their hearts, but only provide lip service to Christ. Those who are in fact the wicked servants that Christ described ...

So lets see how Christ described the wicked servants ...


Mat 18:23-32
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.



And ...



Luk 19:12-27
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.



So the wicked servants are people who though they have been forgiven their sins and debt, refuse to forgive others their debts, and seek their condemnation and judgment. Also the wicked servants believe God to be an Austere man or being and fear him because of it. The word Austere in the Greek is austēros ...


austēros -
1) of mind and manners: harsh, rough, rigid

Main Entry: aus·tere
Pronunciation: \ȯ-ˈstir also -ˈster\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin austerus, from Greek austēros harsh, severe; akin to Greek hauos dry — more at sere
Date: 14th century
1 a : stern and cold in appearance or manner b : somber, grave <an austere critic>
2 : morally strict : ascetic
3 : markedly simple or unadorned <an austere office> <an austere style of writing>
4 : giving little or no scope for pleasure <austere diets>
5 of a wine : having the flavor of acid or tannin predominant over fruit flavors usually indicating a capacity for aging


The wicked servants will not forgive others, but condemn others and judge others even though they have been forgiven. And they live in fear of God as an angry and rough, or cold and strict dictator. They believe God is this way and so they are themselves this way, cold and strict, harsh and stern, judgmental and ruling/living in condemnation over the world.

In no way are the wicked servants described as being too loving, or too forgiving of others, or believing that God is too kind or loving towards humanity. In no way are the wicked servant described as believing that God will have all people to be saved, and is in fact the savior of all people, as the scritpures plainly state. In fact the wicked servant are by the description of Christ, the very opposite ...

Now it is important to note that Christ specifically stated that God was "kind to the unthankful and the evil", but these people do not really believe that. They believe god is austere and will condemn the "unthankful and the evil" for ever, which of course is infinitely opposite of being kind to them ...

Of course this is a picture of the Pharisees in Christs time, who believed themselves elect and saved, but all others damned and stood in hypocritical judgment over all others. It is so interesting to note that the pharisees, like modern day hell fire and brimstone fundamentalist Christians, believed that most people on earth would be condemned by God to everlasting torment after they died.


Josephus wrote concerning the pharisees that ...

Now when Christ spoke to the pharisees about judgment, he never once used any one of the phrases they used when referring to their doctrine of Eternal torment. According to Jospehus and Philo, the words that the pharisees used were "thanaton athanaton","eirgmon aidion","aidion timorion","thanaton ateleuteton", but Christ never used these phrases to describe judgment, neither are they found anywhere in the new or old testament. Instead Christ used "aionion kolasin" ...

I digress ...

I contend that it is in fact the doctrine of Eternal Torment that is the "great delusion" which God sent. And it is the leaven of the pharisees which Christ did refer to ... This doctrine is preferred by people like the pharisees because it strengthens their own elitist and self righteous view of their personal existence over most others in the world around them. It also quenches their thirst for revenge against their enemies, and supports their agendas for power and domination of others they would seek to put under themselves and rule over. Those who would stand between God and mankind. And it has has been proven throughout the past 1700 years that the doctrine leads to war, mass-murder, religious and ethnic cleansing and genocide, torture, etc ...




Selah ...
Thanks for sharing this...
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Old 07-06-2010, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
So, in other words, you're saying he was selfish and really didn't give a rip about others, and he was just looking forward to his own reward. How sad....sounds so much like some people who are glad to be saved and think others will burn for eternity and aren't really that concerned about it.
Classic example of lack of discernment.
You put words where there are none.
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Old 07-06-2010, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post

I contend that it is in fact the doctrine of Eternal Torment that is the "great delusion" which God sent. And it is the leaven of the pharisees which Christ did refer to ..

HAHAHAHA. The great delusion is nowhere even close to this. If it is close to anything, it is the LIE UR teaches.

Quote:
This doctrine is preferred by people like the pharisees because it strengthens their own elitist and self righteous view of their personal existence over most others in the world around them.
Interesting....yet it is the Christian who claims that resurrection is here and now, those who confes to Christ. Sown...raised.

We die daily.

Quote:
It also quenches their thirst for revenge against their enemies, and supports their agendas for power and domination of others they would seek to put under themselves and rule over. Those who would stand between God and mankind. And it has has been proven throughout the past 1700 years that the doctrine leads to war, mass-murder, religious and ethnic cleansing and genocide, torture, etc ...
Blah Blah Blah. More UR rhetoric. Nothing to back it up.
The rest of your post was to say the least...eisegesis.
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