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Old 07-07-2010, 04:23 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,411 posts, read 20,155,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Awesome post, Ironmaw. I cut a few things out in the quoted part, but only for sake of brevity since your entire post has been quoted several times. I appreciate your Iron, man!
Yes i agree , this is how the fundamental church system see's how God is, and because as a man thinks in his heart so is he , this is the god they reflect.

Awesome post Ironmaw
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:09 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,232,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The whole world wasn't saved. God provided the means for salvation. That's it Ironmaw...why can't you believe this...whosoever believes....
God is the savior of all people, therefore all people are saved. You are the one who does not believe what the scriptures plainly state on this issue.


Quote:
Wrong! Maybe several churches held to the belief system, but those churches are gone now, and most of them either recanted or died.
Were you there to count the heads?
Here is my evidence ...

Quote:
St. Basil the Great, writing in the fourth century wrote, “The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished.” (De Asceticis) St. Jerome wrote in the same century, “I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures.” St. Augustine, while himself teaching eternal torment wrote, “There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments.” (Enchira, ad Laurent)

From What is Carlton Pearson's Doctrine of Inclusion?
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

If you have evidences to the contrary that support your assertion that most Christians did not in fact believe in the salvation of all during the first four or five centuries of the early church, please feel free to present them.

Quote:
Gone now! The Holy Spirit took care of that now didn't He?
No, the evil torturing, war mongering and murdering Roman Catholic inquisitors and their superiors are the ones who did that, not the holy spirit. But apparently you believe the holy spirit is all about war-mongering, mass murder and torture, so it is no wonder why you believe the holy spirit was responsible for it.

That is truly sad ...



Quote:
The apostles were full preterists
According to you ...



Quote:
Esisegesis again.
THELO does not imply God's given decree and will. It is simply a benign desire...that can be overturned just like the Jews did so in....Matt 23:37
God blinded Israel, it was his purpose that they reject Christ in order that God might have mercy on all, Romans 11


Quote:
UR is the epitome of the traditions of men influence by pagan philosophies.

They sought the desires of the flesh. They could not accept God's nature.
Christian Universalism is the traditions of men? And that is why so very few men on earth actually believe in it, and the reason that in fact most men deny it and call it heresy?



We will agree to disagree ...



Shalom ...
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,436,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The whole world wasn't saved. God provided the means for salvation. That's it Ironmaw...why can't you believe this...whosoever believes....
Then God is not the savior of the whole world... okay! I think we get where you stand now.



Quote:
The apostles were full preterists
Actually then they would have been futurists... Now they would be preterists but that hardly makes sense since they are dead. So actually they were futurists which is past to us making it the preterist view now...

That hurt.



Quote:
Esisegesis again.
THELO does not imply God's given decree and will. It is simply a benign desire...that can be overturned just like the Jews did so in....Matt 23:37



UR is the epitome of the traditions of men influence by pagan philosophies.
I have yet to see any correlation between UR and pagan philosophies.... can you post links or elaborate in some way?
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:25 PM
 
309 posts, read 296,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
God is the savior of all people, therefore all people are saved. You are the one who does not believe what the scriptures plainly state on this issue.


Here is my evidence ...

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

If you have evidences to the contrary that support your assertion that most Christians did not in fact believe in the salvation of all during the first four or five centuries of the early church, please feel free to present them.

No, the evil torturing, war mongering and murdering Roman Catholic inquisitors and their superiors are the ones who did that, not the holy spirit. But apparently you believe the holy spirit is all about war-mongering, mass murder and torture, so it is no wonder why you believe the holy spirit was responsible for it.

That is truly sad ...



According to you ...



God blinded Israel, it was his purpose that they reject Christ in order that God might have mercy on all, Romans 11


Christian Universalism is the traditions of men? And that is why so very few men on earth actually believe in it, and the reason that in fact most men deny it and call it heresy?



We will agree to disagree ...



Shalom ...

Ironman....It is obvious that he is not going to 'see' these truths. Traditions is all he trying to protect here. Last I studied...I found that UR believers make up less then 2% of bible believing Christians, so 'IF' traditions have caused us to believe the way we do, then the traditions themselves have done a pretty bad job...lol

I remember when I first learned of the UR and likened it to sitting upon the top of a fence. One side was where I walked and grew up (old beliefs), the other was UR beliefs. My old beliefs had many contradictions. I remember at that time that my mind was acting as a JW (I was not JW though), for they dont read, and told not to read, other materials but there own for the most part. I knew the Spirit would guide me if UR was wrong or not. Boy am I glad I came off the fence to a trail that has been rarely walked since Christ, for I lost many friends and family members in believing in UR, but lo and behold Jesus said I would. There are VERY few who believe the way we do, . The others peer through the fence with their Company, but love their company of 'Men' rather then taking a lonely but loving walk with the Spirit of truth.

Great Posts Ironman....take care
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:56 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,729,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Thanks for sharing this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Awesome post, Ironmaw. Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Awesome post, Ironmaw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post

Awesome post Ironmaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post

Great Posts Ironman....take care
Agreed! Awesome post! And great follow-up answers, too!
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:06 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,232,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There's nothing harsh about it. No Scripture contradicts another Scripture. God sovereignly decided to give man free will. God allows man to exercise free will. That in no way implies that God doesn't sometimes overrule man's free will with regard to certain things. However, God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior. That is the issue in man's existence on this earth.

Now, you can research God's 1) overruling will, 2) His directive will, and 3) His permissive will. And try to let an idea into your head and see how man's free will fits into the picture.

And if my post's are too harsh for you, then simply stay away from them. Simple.
You wrote ...

Quote:
However, God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior.
God is the one that hardens people in order to make them reject Christ, or he is the one who has mercy on them and gives them repentance and faith to believe.

That is why Jesus spoke in parables, so that they would not understand and turn and be healed.



Matthew 13:10-17
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people’s heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.



Romans 11:7-8
What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written:
God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”



Romans 11:25-32
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.




God hardened Israel so that they would reject Christ. And he revealed himself to others so that they would believe, like all the disciples for instance, especially Thomas and Paul. Not to mention Nebuchadnezzar who rejecting God and thought he was God, until god over turned his rejection and MADE him believe ... Proving your words above to be wrong.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-15-2010 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 11-15-2010, 11:57 PM
 
37,766 posts, read 25,468,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I always find it interesting when people use 2 Th 2:10 ... I honestly think that many people do not really even understand this verse.

What is "the love of the truth" ... ?

Well the question is who is "the truth"?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


The love of the truth is the love of Christ. It is the love which Christ demonstrated when he walked among us ... The love which he taught, which is the love of ones neighbor as one self, as well as the love of ones enemies. This is the very same love which is described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:4 ...

So we see that those to whom God sends great delusion are those who do not have this love in their hearts, but only provide lip service to Christ. Those who are in fact the wicked servants that Christ described ...

So lets see how Christ described the wicked servants ...


Mat 18:23-32
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

And ...

Luk 19:12-27
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

So the wicked servants are people who, though they have been forgiven their sins and debt, refuse to forgive others their debts, and seek their condemnation and judgment. Also the wicked servants believe God to be an Austere man or being and fear him because of it. The word Austere in the Greek is austēros ...


austēros -
1) of mind and manners: harsh, rough, rigid

Main Entry: aus·tere
Pronunciation: \ȯ-ˈstir also -ˈster\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin austerus, from Greek austēros harsh, severe; akin to Greek hauos dry — more at sere
Date: 14th century
1 a : stern and cold in appearance or manner b : somber, grave <an austere critic>
2 : morally strict : ascetic
3 : markedly simple or unadorned <an austere office> <an austere style of writing>
4 : giving little or no scope for pleasure <austere diets>
5 of a wine : having the flavor of acid or tannin predominant over fruit flavors usually indicating a capacity for aging


The wicked servants will not forgive others, but condemn others and judge others even though they have been forgiven. And they live in fear of God as an angry and rough, or cold and strict dictator. They believe God is this way and so they are themselves this way, cold and strict, harsh and stern, judgmental and ruling/living in condemnation over the world.

In no way are the wicked servants described as being too loving, or too forgiving of others, or believing that God is too kind or loving towards humanity. In no way are the wicked servant described as believing that God will have all people to be saved, and is in fact the savior of all people, as the scritpures plainly state. In fact the wicked servants are by the description of Christ, the very opposite ...

Now it is important to note that Christ specifically stated that God was "kind to the unthankful and the evil", but these people do not really believe that. They believe god is austere and will condemn the "unthankful and the evil" for ever, which of course is infinitely opposite of being kind to them ...

Of course this is a picture of the Pharisees in Christs time, who believed themselves elect and saved, but all others damned and stood in hypocritical judgment over all others. It is so interesting to note that the pharisees, like modern day hell fire and brimstone fundamentalist Christians, believed that most people on earth would be condemned by God to everlasting torment after they died.


Josephus wrote concerning the pharisees that ...

Now when Christ spoke to the pharisees about judgment, he never once used any one of the phrases they used when referring to their doctrine of Eternal torment. According to Jospehus and Philo, the words that the pharisees used were "thanaton athanaton","eirgmon aidion","aidion timorion","thanaton ateleuteton", but Christ never used these phrases to describe judgment, neither are they found anywhere in the new or old testament. Instead Christ used "aionion kolasin" ...

I digress ...

I contend that it is in fact the doctrine of Eternal Torment that is the "great delusion" which God sent. And it is the leaven of the pharisees which Christ did refer to ... This doctrine is preferred by people like the pharisees because it strengthens their own elitist and self righteous view of their personal existence over most others in the world around them. It also quenches their thirst for revenge against their enemies, and supports their agendas for power and domination of others they would seek to put under themselves and rule over. Those who would stand between God and mankind. And it has has been proven throughout the past 1700 years that the doctrine leads to war, mass-murder, religious and ethnic cleansing and genocide, torture, etc ...
Selah ...
I join the chorus of acclamation for this study belatedly . . . but it cannot be quoted or bumped too often. It is an awesome study. Thanks, Iron.
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:07 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I join the chorus of acclamation for this study belatedly . . . but it cannot be quoted or bumped too often. It is an awesome study. Thanks, Iron.
Amen. It was/is a fantastic study about the wicked servants and their perception of God the Father. Thank you for taking the time, Ironmaw.

Heartsong
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:50 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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Great post Ironmaw .
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:18 AM
 
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Iron-man, that was an excellent post.
You would have to be near brain dead, not to understand it.
Although, when one has lost their ability to reason, they do become delusional.
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