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Old 06-19-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,240 times
Reputation: 437

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There's nothing harsh about it. No Scripture contradicts another Scripture. God sovereignly decided to give man free will. God allows man to exercise free will. That in no way implies that God doesn't sometimes overrule man's free will with regard to certain things. However, God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior. That is the issue in man's existence on this earth.

Now, you can research God's 1) overruling will, 2) His directive will, and 3) His permissive will. And try to let an idea into your head and see how man's free will fits into the picture.

And if my post's are too harsh for you, then simply stay away from them. Simple.
"Free will" only exists when God OPENS eyes and ears. Otherwise, they stay shut. The ELECT, remember? If you have been elected and you UNDERSTAND the mystery and yet you run around doing evil and won't run the race you are under wrath.

The rest of the world will be brought in by the ELECT. Don't you know that you will judge the world?

Anyhow, your posts reek of arrogance and rebellion. They are not too harsh for us. It's kind of hard to have a conversation with you when the only people you listen to is yourself and Scofield.

I don't know if I have read even ONE of your posts that sounds like it comes from the heart; a human heart, that is.

When does the Holy Spirit come into play in your posts?

Love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, peace, patience.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:39 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,253 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, go to the thread I directed you to go to and read it. Read also what I said to little Elmo in reply to his post. If you are unwillling to do so, then remain silent and remain ignorant.

I will take the time to answer John 15:16. After that, I will waste no more time on you.

John 15:16 refers to the fact that Jesus chose the 12 as His disciples. Eleven of whom would go on to become apostles to the church. Compare with Luke 6:13, Mt. 10:2-4, Mk 3:13-19, John 6:70, and John 13:18.

Now, apart from that passage, God calls all through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14) and He chooses all who answer the call through positive volition toward the Gospel.
Sir Mike, you say, "John 15:16 refers to the FACT that Jesus chose the 12 as His disciples." (emph. mine).

Exactly my point in saying 'they did NOT choose Him'. Maybe your getting it now. But when you say...

"God calls all...." THEN "He chooses all who answer the call" (emph.mine)

In saying this, you have (unknowingly) turned Jn 15:16 BACK into saying "if you answer MY CALL, then I will CHOOSE you". You are stating that Jn 15:16 is ONLY talking to the disciple during THAT moment and THAT time. I am sorry, but His words "Ye have NOT chosen me,..." is just as true today as it was back then, as with this scripture...

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen (again, this God doing the calling AND the choosing, NOT man).

As pertaining to the link you sent me. I am understanding why you think in such a way. I think I have explained this to you before, but I will stated it again.

ALL through scripture, MAN is given a CHOICE, to choose this or that. What I am trying to get accross, is that NOT ONE has chosen God UNLESS God touched them FIRST. They ALL chose the bad. The ONLY ones who chose the Good, were the ones that God "moved" to do so (therefore it being HIS doing on NOT theirs). I dont believe you are seeing this fact in the scriptures. You stated this though, to little elmer....

God allows man to exercise free will. That in no way implies that God doesn't sometimes overrule man's free will with regard to certain things. However, God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior. (emph. mine)

You are "absolutely, undoubtedly, CORRECT" in the FACT that God gives man a CHOICE. And this what I see in the scriptures you provide me.

But, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE (biblically, philisophically, and scientifically) that MAN can make an "UNCAUSED" choice. In other words, there is ALWAYS something that guides (forces if you will) man to choose this or that. Man's nature is that of a sinner, therefore, without God, he chooses sin.

God makes the one's who do not hear Him "deaf". The one's that don't see Him "blind". They dont 'become' blind or deaf, God made them this way FIRST, and THEN He opens the ears and eyes of the the one's He chooses to see and hear it.

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

And when you say...

"God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior." (emph. mine)

I dont see how you can say that God cannot do such things when He, Himself, blinded Israel.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should no hear unto this day.

They are not blinded because they did not choose Him. God did not choose Israel because they made 'good' choices Mike. This is evident throughout all the scriptures.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,240 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Sir Mike, you say, "John 15:16 refers to the FACT that Jesus chose the 12 as His disciples." (emph. mine).

Exactly my point in saying 'they did NOT choose Him'. Maybe your getting it now. But when you say...

"God calls all...." THEN "He chooses all who answer the call" (emph.mine)

In saying this, you have (unknowingly) turned Jn 15:16 BACK into saying "if you answer MY CALL, then I will CHOOSE you". You are stating that Jn 15:16 is ONLY talking to the disciple during THAT moment and THAT time. I am sorry, but His words "Ye have NOT chosen me,..." is just as true today as it was back then, as with this scripture...

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen (again, this God doing the calling AND the choosing, NOT man).

As pertaining to the link you sent me. I am understanding why you think in such a way. I think I have explained this to you before, but I will stated it again.

ALL through scripture, MAN is given a CHOICE, to choose this or that. What I am trying to get accross, is that NOT ONE has chosen God UNLESS God touched them FIRST. They ALL chose the bad. The ONLY ones who chose the Good, were the ones that God "moved" to do so (therefore it being HIS doing on NOT theirs). I dont believe you are seeing this fact in the scriptures. You stated this though, to little elmer....

God allows man to exercise free will. That in no way implies that God doesn't sometimes overrule man's free will with regard to certain things. However, God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior. (emph. mine)

You are "absolutely, undoubtedly, CORRECT" in the FACT that God gives man a CHOICE. And this what I see in the scriptures you provide me.

But, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE (biblically, philisophically, and scientifically) that MAN can make an "UNCAUSED" choice. In other words, there is ALWAYS something that guides (forces if you will) man to choose this or that. Man's nature is that of a sinner, therefore, without God, he chooses sin.

God makes the one's who do not hear Him "deaf". The one's that don't see Him "blind". They dont 'become' blind or deaf, God made them this way FIRST, and THEN He opens the ears and eyes of the the one's He chooses to see and hear it.

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

And when you say...

"God never overrules man's decision to reject Christ as Savior." (emph. mine)

I dont see how you can say that God cannot do such things when He, Himself, blinded Israel.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should no hear unto this day.

They are not blinded because they did not choose Him. God did not choose Israel because they made 'good' choices Mike. This is evident throughout all the scriptures.
Exactly. And when the elect's eyes are opened (which God uses to show His character to the "outsiders") and they do not RUN THAT RACE, they are kicked out the door. Judgment BEGINS at the house of God. He gave the Jews a couple thousand years. I wonder how much time we have left.

God uses his people to show OTHERS in the world love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc. He wanted us to look NOTHING like the rest of the world so people would understand how God works.

BUT!

Do the elect do what they are supposed to do? Not even close, for the most part.

You (Israel) have heard it said, an EYE FOR AN EYE, but, NO! I say LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

So, the elect (first Israel and then the Catholics and Protestants) start wars. They become proud. They sneer at the outsiders. They do NOT love and take care of them. They support political structures that OPPRESS and beat down the innocent and helpless.

ALL are concluded in unbelief.........so he might have mercy on ALL.

Last edited by herefornow; 06-19-2010 at 01:49 PM..
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:48 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,253 times
Reputation: 60
And also Mike....in respects to 2Th 2:14.... God still does the CHOOSING FIRST. This we cannot deny..

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

He still is the one responsible Mike, not man's supposed 'freewill'.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:50 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,253 times
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So true herefornow....so true.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:57 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,407,598 times
Reputation: 682
Free will is a delusion, most likely part of Satan's deception on the whole world. We see how Mike's theology is based on free will... yet a fundamental belief in free will leads to the pride and boasting in one's own salvation, yet out of the other side of the mouth we hear that no one can boast...

Free will leads to statements of people being "wise" enough to choose Jesus, or being stupid and ending up in hell... if that's not boasting I don't know what is... Free will makes you your own savior, giving you the power to VETO God's own desires.

Free will is a pipe dream, a wish in the eyes of many. It gives you the illusion you are the master and commander of your own domain. Yet free will fails when analyzed from every possible angle. It makes no sense logically, scientifically, philosophically, or scripturally.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:58 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,253 times
Reputation: 60
[quote=Mike555;14684557]Now, apart from that passage,...quote]

Well, this isn't the only passage that goes against a supposed "freewill" though. Here is another verse...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

What does this verse mean to you?
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:11 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,253 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Free will is a delusion, most likely part of Satan's deception on the whole world. We see how Mike's theology is based on free will... yet a fundamental belief in free will leads to the pride and boasting in one's own salvation, yet out of the other side of the mouth we hear that no one can boast...

Free will leads to statements of people being "wise" enough to choose Jesus, or being stupid and ending up in hell... if that's not boasting I don't know what is... Free will makes you your own savior, giving you the power to VETO God's own desires.

Free will is a pipe dream, a wish in the eyes of many. It gives you the illusion you are the master and commander of your own domain. Yet free will fails when analyzed from every possible angle. It makes no sense logically, scientifically, philosophically, or scripturally.
Yes...this freewill 'delusion' thing is IMO a plan of God though. This is what I think, in some respects, that sits on the throne of God and exalting itself above all that God can do. I totally see how Mike could conclude what he believes by the scriptures he is presenting. I used to think the same thing. So I dont blame him, in that respect. But by stating all the 'scriptures' that I have presented, one is hard pressed to explain them away, if indeed, freewill is a reality. To this date, no one can put 'freewill' back into these scriptures. They truly do bring, all that man thinks he is, to nothing more than a 'lump' of clay in the hands of the Great Potter. Man is nothing more than a 'POT'.
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:26 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,407,598 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Yes...this freewill 'delusion' thing is IMO a plan of God though. This is what I think, in some respects, that sits on the throne of God and exalting itself above all that God can do. I totally see how Mike could conclude what he believes by the scriptures he is presenting. I used to think the same thing. So I dont blame him, in that respect. But by stating all the 'scriptures' that I have presented, one is hard pressed to explain them away, if indeed, freewill is a reality. To this date, no one can put 'freewill' back into these scriptures. They truly do bring, all that man thinks he is, to nothing more than a 'lump' of clay in the hands of the Great Potter. Man is nothing more than a 'POT'.
100% agreed. Satan's delusion is of course God's plan. Scripture also confirms that God does send a strong delusion out and also God sends out lying spirits. God blinds so He can show His full power and love and so we will be humbled.

So-called "free-will" believers must ignore the scriptures you present in order to maintain a sense of stability in their freewillness.

You would think the pot is molding the potter...
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,240 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
100% agreed. Satan's delusion is of course God's plan. Scripture also confirms that God does send a strong delusion out and also God sends out lying spirits. God blinds so He can show His full power and love and so we will be humbled.

So-called "free-will" believers must ignore the scriptures you present in order to maintain a sense of stability in their freewillness.

You would think the pot is molding the potter...

It's scary when you find out you have absolutely NO control over the universe.
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