The Restoration of all Things; Acts 3:21. (testimony, women, Jacob, worship)

[herefornow]

[quote=joeallcomm;14690301]My comments and EMPH. in RED Mike. See if you have not lost yourself with your own reasoning.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Follow along now. I will try not to lose you. It is real simple. Here we go.

God has provided the Gospel. When the Gospel is presented to the hearer who is an unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel perspicacious to that unbeliever (yep...the Spirit makes/causes them to percieve and understand these things, NOT man by his 'freewill', this is the HELP from God I am talking about). The Gospel is spiritual phenomenon and is not understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever (100% correct...some are not GIVEN the "ears to hear" and some are not. Mat 3:9+11). Therefore, the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever (makes understandable 'some' yes Matt 3:9+11, but not all. Again this is the Spirit doing this NOT freewill of man. And Correct me if I am wrong here Mike, but for those who do not know, the doctine of "COMMON GRACE" basically states a certain GRACE that was bestowed upon ALL CREATION whether righteous and unrighteous....example being the sun rising upon both, the gifts of children to both, rains upon both. The Preached Gospel may be of 'common grace" as you say, but these mysterious 'understandings' are NOT "commonly" GIVEN BY GOD to all are they? As scripture states) This is God calling through the Gospel as per 2 Thess. 2:14. Now, if upon understanding ('the understanding' GIVEN to him BY GOD that is) the Gospel message (understanding) which has been presented to him, the hearer responds (and no question he WILL respond, there is no 'if' about it, because this is where 'efficacious grace' or 'irrestistable grace' comes into play. NOT AFTER the man chooses. This grace will 'cause' him to choose God) to the Gospel with positive volition, then in His ministry of effacacious grace, the Holy Spirit takes the faith which has been exercised by the hearer (NO THAT IS NOT WORKS-Eph. 2:8,9) (Absolutely correct, it is NOT works, because the FAITH is a 'gift of God'. See the greek. The word 'that' in Eph. 2:8 points to the word 'faith', so 'that faith' is NOT of yourselves, it is a 'gift of God'. Therefore, a man's very belief is a 'gift from God'. Because if it was of man, he could boast that 'HE' believed by his own freewill, which would be works), and He carries that faith to the point of salvation. He makes the faith effective for salvation.

There is no merit in the faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. The faith is simply the means by which the work of Christ on the Cross is appropriated by the one who believes.

Now, we (this is Mike speaking not I) know that God desires (desires of an Almighty God are apparently mere manly 'weak wishes'. Obviously, we are to believe that Christ is NOT able to quicken 'whom he will/desires', given Mike's understanding of this Greek word 'thelo'. Jn 5:21) that all men be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4. We also know that not everyone is saved even though God desires everyone to be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing (Gk: apollumi) foolishness (yes, he will seek and saved the 'apollumi' as well Mat 18:11, Luke 19:10), but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, ''I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.'' [20] Where is the wise man?(I am talking to him rite now) Where is the scribe? (you quote your scholars all the time) Where is the debater of this age? (you still question the Potter) Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (but you still quote from these wise wise men/scholars) [21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (the schoolmaster brings to the cross, nobody is saying your scholars dont have a purpose, but there comes a time when we are in NO more need of the schoolmaster. This is why Paul would say to you 'I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.' 2Co 2:2., they had progressed no further than this at this time. The Chosen, not the 'choosing', ones go further than this)
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [4} in whose case the god (this is the SPIRIT of slumber God GAVE them and who pray tell do you think that 'spirit' is? God gives most of Christianity "strong delusion" to believe a LIE.) of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. (Satan deceives through his cosmic system. His doctrines of demons. People who aren't interested in the truth will be suckers for the cosmic doctrines that are rampant in the world.)

[6] For God, who said, ''Light shall shine out of darkness,'' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

God has revealed Himself. He calls through the Gospel. Now each individual must choose for or against the message of the Gospel. God desires for all men to be saved. He calls out through the Gospel which is made understandable (Im sorry Mike but this 'understanding' is NOT GIVEN to everyone, that is WHY he spoke in parables. Mat 13:10 and 11) by the Holy Spirit. God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, choose (can't choose if your not GIVEN the understanding of it) to answer the call of the Gospel. God calls. Man answers 'yes' or 'no'. Of his own free will, based on his understanding of the facts.

And here we have it. We now have your answer to my question when I stated...




Why yes you are equating them the same, lets all read the bolded words to see what you are saying to the world....

"God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, CHOOSE to answer the call of the Gospel."(emp mine)

So therefore, this scripture...

"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...."

is either a flat out LIE in scriptures or NOT for anyone of our time. So which is it.

People really try to complicate what is in fact very simple (can't get any simpler than 'ye have NOT chosen me' Mike). Man's free will co-exists along with God's sovereign will, by God's sovereign will. God's sovereign will operates within the areas of 1) His directive will; 2) His overruling will; and 3) His permissive will. God allows man to have and to use free will. There are times when God overrules man's free will. But never in the case of individual salvation (and all WILL confess). That would violate God's very reason (God is creatING man in His own image, He is not done yet, the Mystery is not complete) in a for creating man in the first place.[/quote]

Perfect.

[Michael Way]

[quote=joeallcomm;14690301]My comments and EMPH. in RED Mike. See if you have not lost yourself with your own reasoning.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Follow along now. I will try not to lose you. It is real simple. Here we go.

God has provided the Gospel. When the Gospel is presented to the hearer who is an unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel perspicacious to that unbeliever (yep...the Spirit makes/causes them to percieve and understand these things, NOT man by his 'freewill', this is the HELP from God I am talking about). The Gospel is spiritual phenomenon and is not understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever (100% correct...some are not GIVEN the "ears to hear" and some are not. Mat 3:9+11). Therefore, the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever (makes understandable 'some' yes Matt 3:9+11, but not all. Again this is the Spirit doing this NOT freewill of man. And Correct me if I am wrong here Mike, but for those who do not know, the doctine of "COMMON GRACE" basically states a certain GRACE that was bestowed upon ALL CREATION whether righteous and unrighteous....example being the sun rising upon both, the gifts of children to both, rains upon both. The Preached Gospel may be of 'common grace" as you say, but these mysterious 'understandings' are NOT "commonly" GIVEN BY GOD to all are they? As scripture states) This is God calling through the Gospel as per 2 Thess. 2:14. Now, if upon understanding ('the understanding' GIVEN to him BY GOD that is) the Gospel message (understanding) which has been presented to him, the hearer responds (and no question he WILL respond, there is no 'if' about it, because this is where 'efficacious grace' or 'irrestistable grace' comes into play. NOT AFTER the man chooses. This grace will 'cause' him to choose God) to the Gospel with positive volition,

Wrong. Efficacious grace is not irresistable grace. God's grace can be resisted. Many hear the Gospel and reject it. That is not God's wish, but it happens. Man's free will.

John 5:40 'and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

Acts 7:51 You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

then in His ministry of effacacious grace, the Holy Spirit takes the faith which has been exercised by the hearer (NO THAT IS NOT WORKS-Eph. 2:8,9) (Absolutely correct, it is NOT works, because the FAITH is a 'gift of God'. See the greek. The word 'that' in Eph. 2:8 points to the word 'faith', so 'that faith' is NOT of yourselves, it is a 'gift of God'. Therefore, a man's very belief is a 'gift from God'. Because if it was of man, he could boast that 'HE' believed by his own freewill, which would be works), and He carries that faith to the point of salvation. He makes the faith effective for salvation.

That faith is from God is only true in the most basic sense that ultimately, everything is from God. God gave man mentality and volition, and therefore man can have faith. Faith is simply trusting in the Lord. It is confidence in Christ. As a result of hearing the Gospel and understanding it, and considering the facts, a person decides that Christ can be trusted to provide salvation. A decision is made to place his trust, his faith in Christ for salvation. The faith comes from the person. Faith is a volitional response to the Gospel message. It is no different than the faith that, for instance, a child has in his parents. The child knows he can trust his parents and so he does. He has faith in his parents because of who and what they are. They showed themselves to be trustworthy, and so the child trusts them. The faith comes from the child in response to the trustworthiness of his parents. And so it is with faith toward God.

As I said, God desires that everyone be saved. The Scriptures are clear that all are not saved (That is obvious from 1 Cor 1:18). And only a fool would think otherwise. Since faith is required for salvation, and not all men are saved, if faith were from God, that would make God guilty of withholding saving faith from some. And that is Calvinistic. Which is another heresy.

There is no merit in the faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. The faith is simply the means by which the work of Christ on the Cross is appropriated by the one who believes.

Now, we (this is Mike speaking not I) know that God desires (desires of an Almighty God are apparently mere manly 'weak wishes'. Obviously, we are to believe that Christ is NOT able to quicken 'whom he will/desires', given Mike's understanding of this Greek word 'thelo'. Jn 5:21) that all men be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4. We also know that not everyone is saved even though God desires everyone to be saved.

God desires to save everyone. But not apart from believing the Gospel. Only those who come to God through Christ are saved. Man must exercise His free will to respond to the Gospel for salvation. That is obvious from the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing (Gk: apollumi) foolishness (yes, he will seek and saved the 'apollumi' as well Mat 18:11, Luke 19:10), but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, ''I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.'' [20] Where is the wise man?(I am talking to him rite now) Where is the scribe? (you quote your scholars all the time) Where is the debater of this age? (you still question the Potter) Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? (but you still quote from these wise wise men/scholars)

You falsely equate the gift of pastor/teacher which is given by God the Holy Spirit with the wisdom of the world. It is a foolish thing to do. But it is common among those of your kind.

[21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (the schoolmaster brings to the cross, nobody is saying your scholars dont have a purpose, but there comes a time when we are in NO more need of the schoolmaster. This is why Paul would say to you 'I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.' 2Co 2:2., they had progressed no further than this at this time. The Chosen, not the 'choosing', ones go further than this)
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]

To the contrary. The believer always needs to be under the teaching ministry of a qualified pastor/teacher. The pastor is part of God's system for spiritual growth. Eph. 4:11-16.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [4} in whose case the god (this is the SPIRIT of slumber God GAVE them and who pray tell do you think that 'spirit' is? God gives most of Christianity "strong delusion" to believe a LIE.) of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. (Satan deceives through his cosmic system. His doctrines of demons. People who aren't interested in the truth will be suckers for the cosmic doctrines that are rampant in the world.)

The god of this age is Satan. It is he who deceives.

The world is Satan's domain; Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8

Satan is the ruler of this world; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11

Satan is the prince of the power of the air; Eph 2:2

Satan is the father of unbelievers; John 8:44

Satan influences rulers; 1 Chronicles 21:1-5

[6] For God, who said, ''Light shall shine out of darkness,'' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

God has revealed Himself. He calls through the Gospel. Now each individual must choose for or against the message of the Gospel. God desires for all men to be saved. He calls out through the Gospel which is made understandable (Im sorry Mike but this 'understanding' is NOT GIVEN to everyone, that is WHY he spoke in parables.

I said that the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer. That does not mean that everyone responds to it. It doesn't mean that eveyone wants to respond to it. But the Holy Spirit makes the issue clear to those who hear it. To those who will listen.

As for the parables, Jesus didn't begin to speak in parables until Israel made it clear that it was rejecting Christ as Messiah. That is when Jesus turned the focus of His message toward establishing His church.

Mat 13:10 and 11)

by the Holy Spirit. God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, choose (can't choose if your not GIVEN the understanding of it) to answer the call of the Gospel. God calls. Man answers 'yes' or 'no'. Of his own free will, based on his understanding of the facts.

And here we have it. We now have your answer to my question when I stated...




Why yes you are equating them the same, lets all read the bolded words to see what you are saying to the world....

"God then chooses all who of their own free will as a result of having been given the Gospel message, CHOOSE to answer the call of the Gospel."(emp mine)

So therefore, this scripture...

"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...."

is either a flat out LIE in scriptures or NOT for anyone of our time. So which is it.

You are wrong on both counts. Again. God calls through the Gospel as 2 Thess. 2:14 says. Those who respond to the Gospel are chosen by God. God desires for all men to be saved, but not apart from the condition of the Gospel, which is to believe in Christ for salvation. God knew from eternit past who would and who wouldn't respond to the Gospel.

People really try to complicate what is in fact very simple (can't get any simpler than 'ye have NOT chosen me' Mike). Man's free will co-exists along with God's sovereign will, by God's sovereign will. God's sovereign will operates within the areas of 1) His directive will; 2) His overruling will; and 3) His permissive will. God allows man to have and to use free will. There are times when God overrules man's free will. But never in the case of individual salvation (and all WILL confess).

No. All will not acknowledge Christ as Savior. All will (many will be forced to) acknowledge that Christ is Lord of all. But those who are forced to do so, do so as the defeated enemy of Christ. And then they will depart from Christ into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Being forced to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ is not the same as believing in Him for salvation.

Matthew 8:29 and Mark 5:6-7 both record that the demons knew that Jesus was the Son of God, yet they were not saved. They implored Jesus not to torment them.

That would violate God's very reason (God is creatING man in His own image, He is not done yet, the Mystery is not complete) in a for creating man in the first place.[/quote]

No. God is not creating man in His own image. He had created Adam in His own image by giving Adam certain soul functions that in a limited way were like God's. God is sovereign; Adam had free will. God is omniscient; Adam had intelligence and self awareness, etc...

The believer is being conformed into the image of Jesus Christ. That is a reference to His humanity. Not His deity.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren.

Being conformed to the image of His Son has to do with

1) Positional sanctification (happens at the moment of salvation)

2) Experiential sanctification (the result of spiritual growth)

3) Ultimate sanctification (occurs at the resurrection of the body)

That has no connotation of being made into the image of God.


You are seriously lacking in knowledge.

You are a universalist with Calvinistic tendencies. Both are heretical.

[herefornow]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Matthew 8:29 and Mark 5:6-7 both record that the demons knew that Jesus was the Son of God, yet they were not saved. They implored Jesus not to torment them.

Mike, we have a little bit of a problem.

Do you see your post on the above verses??? (and I don't know why you spend so much energy on OTHER men's views and commentary------"Bible" teachers are terribly conflicted about much. They can't agree on ANYTHING. We were GIVEN the Holy Spirit to bring us into truth)

You told me previously, in a post long, long ago that God must have at SOME TIME in the past tried to reconcile the angels that have fallen......Did you not??????

So, when these "demons" (that is not the correct name for them) were asking not to be thrown back into the "dark" wherever that is, this was BEFORE Christ DIED. YES?

SO!

HOW would the following verses be RECONCILED with your version of a PAST attempt (before the cross) reconciliation????


"And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether things in earth, or things in heaven " (Col. 1:20).

"By Him to reconcile principalities and powers in heaven and on earth" (Col. 1:16, 20)

OR~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him: and, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven "

Do you understand this verse, now?????

Revelation 5:13. Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

[trettep]

"The wicked, who have committed evil the whole period of their lives, shall be punished until they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear Elohim, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of grace. For He never would have said, 'Until thou hast paid the last farthing' (Mt.5:26) unless we could be released from punishment, after having suffered adequately for sin; nor would He have said, 'He shall be beaten with many stripes' and again 'He shall be beaten with few stripes' (Lk.12:47-48), unless the punishments to be endured for sin will have an end" (Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia, AD 392-428, Fragment IV).

[joeallcomm]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Wrong. Efficacious grace is not irresistable grace. God's grace can be resisted. Many hear the Gospel and reject it. That is not God's wish, but it happens. Man's free will.

John 5:40 'and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

Acts 7:51 You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Nobody is debating that people are rejecting the Gospel Mike. You bring up John 5:40 to prove your position, but you 'cherry picked' it just like you 'claim' we do. You can't just use this one scripture and pull it out of context of the WHOLE of scriptures. Okay, we have Jn 5:40. Why do you suppose they are 'unwilling' sir. Here is your verse and another one just like it.

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

We are not denying this one iota. This is the truth of God's Word. But why in John 5:40 do they NOT 'come to' Him??? Here is WHY, but you do NOT BELIEVE these scriptures. These are just a 'few' of the scriptures that you don't want to 'waist your time' addressing. They don't come, because...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME ***DRAW *** HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, EXCEPT IT WERE **GIVEN** UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER.

The word "draw" in EVERY occurence has the meaning of "DRAG BY FORCE" against the WILL of the one being dragged. Read those verses 1000 times until they sink in. God has not given you the eyes to see them, for He will answer you according to the "idols of your heart". He has ONLY shown you what you WANT to see.

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

But maybe we are incorrect about these verses (Jn 6:44,65) Mike. If so, tell us where. Explain to us what they mean, if they do not mean what we think they mean. For we are NOT going be so arrogant to think that God cannot blind us. On the other hand, NEITHER should YOU.

That faith is from God is only true in the most basic sense that ultimately, everything is from God. God gave man mentality and volition, and therefore man can have faith. Faith is simply trusting in the Lord. It is confidence in Christ. As a result of hearing the Gospel and understanding it, and considering the facts, a person decides that Christ can be trusted to provide salvation. A decision is made to place his trust, his faith in Christ for salvation. The faith comes from the person. Faith is a volitional response to the Gospel message.It is no different than the faith that, for instance, a child has in his parents. The child knows he can trust his parents and so he does. He has faith in his parents because of who and what they are. They showed themselves to be trustworthy, and so the child trusts them. The faith comes from the child in response to the trustworthiness of his parents. And so it is with faith toward God.

(all deleted emph. and emph. mine)

The words in blue, only prove my point (notice the bold blue) that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make an UNCAUSED choice. In turn, our choices are manipulated by our environment and fleshly feelings. This is 'manipulation', a 'caused choice', but not 'freewill". You will NEVER, given a million years, prove that a 'choice' did NOT have a "CAUSE" that came FIRST.

In regards to your words in red, you are still not seeing (or 'hearing' for that matter) that God is the one who GIVES this 'hearing and understanding' you speak of. You give 'a CHOICE act of Man' the credit for his own salvation. Once again, if one DOES NOT hear and understand, WHO is the one who takes credit for their NOT hearing and understanding. This is yet another verse that you ignore to keep your theology. Please tell us what this verse means, if it does not mean God causes them to be blinded and DEAF to the truth.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

Here is SCRIPTURAL FACT that God GAVE this spirit to them. Mike....did He or did He NOT send this 'spirit' upon them to 'cause' them to be blind/deaf? Therefore, God was responsible for their 'blindness' and 'deafness', so that they could not 'hear' or 'understand'. So are you telling me that the ones that God gave this 'spirit' to STILL ABLE to choose God????? Christ HIMSELF says it is NOT GIVEN TO THEM to hear and understand.

Mat 13:9 Who HATH EARS TO HEAR, let him hear.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know (Gk: understand) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT (the understanding) IS NOT GIVEN.

So in seeing this, the "THEM" will not come a "result of hearing the Gospel and understanding it", as you say, much less have a choice in the matter. You don't even know what these verses mean. But again, if we be wrong, tell us what these verse (so far) mean. Don't bring up OTHER verses as you do so often. We want to know what THESE SAID verses mean to you. They are NOT given the 'ear' to hear what He says. Heck, at this time His own disciples didn't even understand. Christ put his OWN disciples in the same lot as 'them'...

Mar 8:16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
Mar 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
Mar 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
Mar 8:19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
Mar 8:20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
Mar 8:21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

Why....Why don't they 'hear' and 'understand' Him yet? Because the Comforter has not been given to them, the Comforter GIVES them this 'ear to hear', this 'understanding', the words that they should speak, etc.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christ HIMSELF opened their understanding of the OT scriptures.

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

So again, if one DOES 'hear and understand' it is GIVEN TO him. If it is NOT GIVEN, they will not 'hear and understand', and by your own analogy of this, man can't even CHOOSE him WITHOUT this 'hearing and understanding'.

As I said, God desires that everyone be saved. The Scriptures are clear that all are not saved (That is obvious from 1 Cor 1:18). And only a fool would think otherwise. Since faith is required for salvation, and not all men are saved, if faith were from God, that would make God guilty of withholding saving faith from some. And that is Calvinistic. Which is another heresy.

We can go thru this 'desires' thing all day long sir.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

The word 'will' here is the SAME word that is used 1T 2:4. So Christ is NOT ABLE to quicken whom he 'desires', right! Quit ignoring this verse and explain yourself please!!! Or are you going to be 'foolish' enough to tell us HE CAN'T.

In regards to 1Cor 1:18. The 'us' pertains to the 'chosen' (the firstfruits) of God. You obviously know nothing of the 'harvest'. He withholds from MOST of humanity NOW, and gives it to the rest later. Concidering how many people that has never heard the Gospel, you seem to be stretching this a bit. Knowing what I believe and comparing me to a Calvinist is quite rude. You should know better.

To the contrary. The believer always needs to be under the teaching ministry of a qualified pastor/teacher. The pastor is part of God's system for spiritual growth. Eph. 4:11-16.

Contrary to your contrary. By 'schoolmaster', I was refering to WHAT (YOUR laws, doctrines, instruction) you and your scholars preach. You progress no further in your faith. If you are STILL under a 'schoolmaster' then true FAITH has NOT come unto you (Gal 3:24,25). Hence, WE "determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (because THIS part, you got right). Faith grows you know. You dont get it all at once. For there are things that you and your 'schoolmasters' can NOT explain to us. Our whole conversation Mike has stemmed from me asking what "ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you..." means from the mouth of YOUR VERY SAVIOR. You dont have faith enough 'yet' to believe what it says.

Your Faith tells you this...

The god of this age is Satan. It is he who deceives.

Our Faith has progressed in us to know WHO sends him and who OWNS them. Can your schoolmasters or yourself tell us what these verses mean?

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit (Heb: deceitful) in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. [also see 2Ch 18:22]

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet,...(God takes TOTAL credit for this Mike)

Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived AND the deceiver ARE HIS.


Your Faith tells you this....

The world is Satan's domain; Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8

Our Faith tells us God created him and put him here. Again, what do these verses mean...

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath FORMED the crooked serpent.
Job 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his (God's) ways: but how little a portion is heard of him (by your Faith)? but the thunder of his power who can understand?


Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have CREATED the waster to destroy.[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
Your Faith tell you these things....

Satan is the ruler of this world; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11

Satan is the prince of the power of the air; Eph 2:2

Satan is the father of unbelievers; John 8:44

Our Faith tells us that God meant it to be so because...

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL: (not our will).

Your Faith tell you this....

Satan influences rulers; 1 Chronicles 21:1-5

When you read this...

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Our Faith tells us God sent him to do this very thing.....

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and HE (God) moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

He obviously sent Satan to 'move' David to do this. But what do all these scriptures mean to you and your schoolmaster Mike???

Do you NOW see the difference between WHAT God ALLOWS YOU and your schoolmasters (scholars, pastors, instructors)" to SEE/hear/understand and what He ALLOWS us to see and understand???

I said that the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer. That does not mean that everyone responds to it. It doesn't mean that eveyone wants to respond to it. But the Holy Spirit makes the issue clear to those who hear it. To those who will listen.

Again, they are GIVEN this understanding.

As for the parables, Jesus didn't begin to speak in parables until Israel made it clear that it was rejecting Christ as Messiah. That is when Jesus turned the focus of His message toward establishing His church.

Again, WHO gave them this blindness???

You are wrong on both counts. Again. God calls through the Gospel as 2 Thess. 2:14 says. Those who respond to the Gospel are chosen by God. God desires for all men to be saved, but not apart from the condition of the Gospel, which is to believe in Christ for salvation. God knew from eternit past who would and who wouldn't respond to the Gospel.

Red. Again, this MUST be a lie then "YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have chosen you"

Blue. No, God predestined HIS CHOSEN people to believe on Him. Again, please explain these verses to us sir. You keep ignoring all these type of verses, and we are debating on just ONE.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (the word 'should' is not in the manuscripts)

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

No. All will not acknowledge Christ as Savior. All will (many will be forced to) acknowledge that Christ is Lord of all. But those who are forced to do so, do so as the defeated enemy of Christ. And then they will depart from Christ into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

This is beating the proverbial 'dead horse' with you and you schoolmasters. Sufficient verses have been given to you, but if you don't 'hear or understand' the ones that I have been presenting to you, how are you going to 'hear or understand' any other??

Being forced to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ is not the same as believing in Him for salvation.

Matthew 8:29 and Mark 5:6-7 both record that the demons knew that Jesus was the Son of God, yet they were not saved. They implored Jesus not to torment them.

A Loving Fathers 'CHASTISING' is one of correction, NOT torture. But...

Heb 12:11 ....NO chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]

Your schoolmasters have 'seered' into your mind this 'torture' concept of theirs, and you believe it by the FAITH that THEY teach you.

To all that has been said by the SCRIPTURES, I will quote but one from a differing FAITH then mine.

You are seriously lacking in knowledge.

You are a universalist with Calvinistic tendencies. Both are heretical. "I love you just the same though".[/quote]

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by joeallcomm

Nobody is debating that people are rejecting the Gospel Mike. You bring up John 5:40 to prove your position, but you 'cherry picked' it just like you 'claim' we do. You can't just use this one scripture and pull it out of context of the WHOLE of scriptures. Okay, we have Jn 5:40. Why do you suppose they are 'unwilling' sir. Here is your verse and another one just like it

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I gave at least two verses I think. There are many more. But, the Scriptures only have to say something once for it to be true.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

We are not denying this one iota. This is the truth of God's Word. But why in John 5:40 do they NOT 'come to' Him??? Here is WHY, but you do NOT BELIEVE these scriptures. These are just a 'few' of the scriptures that you don't want to 'waist your time' addressing. They don't come, because...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME ***DRAW *** HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, EXCEPT IT WERE **GIVEN** UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER.

The word "draw" in EVERY occurence has the meaning of "DRAG BY FORCE" against the WILL of the one being dragged. Read those verses 1000 times until they sink in. God has not given you the eyes to see them, for He will answer you according to the "idols of your heart". He has ONLY shown you what you WANT to see.

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

But maybe we are incorrect about these verses (Jn 6:44,65) Mike. If so, tell us where. Explain to us what they mean, if they do not mean what we think they mean. For we are NOT going be so arrogant to think that God cannot blind us. On the other hand, NEITHER should YOU.

Yes. You are incorrect. And yes. I will explain what being drawn means.

There is nothing mystical about the way God draws man to Him. John 6:45 explains it clearly. It's just one verse after John 6:44. John 6:45 ''It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

They shall all be taught. = The Gospel

Everyone --->Hear --->Learn--->Come.

God draws or calls man through the Gospel. 2 Thess. 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.

(all deleted emph. and emph. mine)

The words in blue, only prove my point (notice the bold blue) that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make an UNCAUSED choice. In turn, our choices are manipulated by our environment and fleshly feelings. This is 'manipulation', a 'caused choice', but not 'freewill". You will NEVER, given a million years, prove that a 'choice' did NOT have a "CAUSE" that came FIRST.

You are applying a definition to 'free will' that is not warranted and then argueing against free will on the basis of an unwarrented definition. Free will, volition is nothing more and nothing less than the ability to make a choice between one thing and another thing. God made Adam in His image. That includes giving Adam free will. God then gave Adam a test for his free will. God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and gave Adam a command not to eat it. God knew that Adam would disobey Him and eat it. And God allowed it to happen. That is free will. The ability to choose to obey or disobey God. Forget about all the philosophical mumbo jumbo. God gave man the abilty to say 'yes' or to say 'no'. God says 'Do this.' and man says, 'I will.' or 'I won't.'

Doe's God ever overrule man's free will? I have already told you that He does. I have told you at least twice about God's overruling, directive, and permissive will. But not with regard to individual salvation. That is completely up to man. And man gets no credit because he is only saying yes to an offer that God has extended to him. You don't take credit for accepting a gift.

In regards to your words in red, you are still not seeing (or 'hearing' for that matter) that God is the one who GIVES this 'hearing and understanding' you speak of.

You can't even seem to understand what I said concerning the fact that it is God the Holy Spirit who makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer.

I said it plain as punch in the other post that it is God the Holy Spirit that makes the Gospel understandable, and you make the comment that 'I don't see that it is God who gives this hearing. '

Having comprehension problems are you?

You give 'a CHOICE act of Man' the credit for his own salvation. Once again, if one DOES NOT hear and understand, WHO is the one who takes credit for their NOT hearing and understanding. This is yet another verse that you ignore to keep your theology. Please tell us what this verse means, if it does not mean God causes them to be blinded and DEAF to the truth.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

I think I already said something about that. But if not..., 'when man rejects the truth, then God will send a deluding influence so that that persons heart may be hardened. God does not do that unless a person has first shown rebelliousness against God. It also applys to Israel. Irsrael rejected Christ as the Messiah and was disciplined as a result, even to this very day. It will not be until the end of the Tribulation that Israel as a nation turns back to God. In the meantime, there will be a few individuals who of their own free will, will turn to God. But not as a nation.'

Here is SCRIPTURAL FACT that God GAVE this spirit to them. Mike....did He or did He NOT send this 'spirit' upon them to 'cause' them to be blind/deaf? Therefore, God was responsible for their 'blindness' and 'deafness', so that they could not 'hear' or 'understand'. So are you telling me that the ones that God gave this 'spirit' to STILL ABLE to choose God????? Christ HIMSELF says it is NOT GIVEN TO THEM to hear and understand.

Mat 13:9 Who HATH EARS TO HEAR, let him hear.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know (Gk: understand) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT (the understanding) IS NOT GIVEN.

So in seeing this, the "THEM" will not come a "result of hearing the Gospel and understanding it", as you say, much less have a choice in the matter. You don't even know what these verses mean. But again, if we be wrong, tell us what these verse (so far) mean. Don't bring up OTHER verses as you do so often. We want to know what THESE SAID verses mean to you. They are NOT given the 'ear' to hear what He says. Heck, at this time His own disciples didn't even understand. Christ put his OWN disciples in the same lot as 'them'...

Mar 8:16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
Mar 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
Mar 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
Mar 8:19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
Mar 8:20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
Mar 8:21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

Why....Why don't they 'hear' and 'understand' Him yet? Because the Comforter has not been given to them, the Comforter GIVES them this 'ear to hear', this 'understanding', the words that they should speak, etc.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christ HIMSELF opened their understanding of the OT scriptures.

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

So again, if one DOES 'hear and understand' it is GIVEN TO him. If it is NOT GIVEN, they will not 'hear and understand', and by your own analogy of this, man can't even CHOOSE him WITHOUT this 'hearing and understanding'.



We can go thru this 'desires' thing all day long sir.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

The word 'will' here is the SAME word that is used 1T 2:4. So Christ is NOT ABLE to quicken whom he 'desires', right! Quit ignoring this verse and explain yourself please!!! Or are you going to be 'foolish' enough to tell us HE CAN'T.

In regards to 1Cor 1:18. The 'us' pertains to the 'chosen' (the firstfruits) of God. You obviously know nothing of the 'harvest'. He withholds from MOST of humanity NOW, and gives it to the rest later. Concidering how many people that has never heard the Gospel, you seem to be stretching this a bit. Knowing what I believe and comparing me to a Calvinist is quite rude. You should know better.



Contrary to your contrary. By 'schoolmaster', I was refering to WHAT (YOUR laws, doctrines, instruction) you and your scholars preach. You progress no further in your faith. If you are STILL under a 'schoolmaster' then true FAITH has NOT come unto you (Gal 3:24,25). Hence, WE "determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (because THIS part, you got right). Faith grows you know. You dont get it all at once. For there are things that you and your 'schoolmasters' can NOT explain to us. Our whole conversation Mike has stemmed from me asking what "ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you..." means from the mouth of YOUR VERY SAVIOR. You dont have faith enough 'yet' to believe what it says.

Your Faith tells you this...



Our Faith has progressed in us to know WHO sends him and who OWNS them. Can your schoolmasters or yourself tell us what these verses mean?

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit (Heb: deceitful) in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. [also see 2Ch 18:22]

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet,...(God takes TOTAL credit for this Mike)

Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived AND the deceiver ARE HIS.


Your Faith tells you this....



Our Faith tells us God created him and put him here. Again, what do these verses mean...

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath FORMED the crooked serpent.
Job 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his (God's) ways: but how little a portion is heard of him (by your Faith)? but the thunder of his power who can understand?


Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have CREATED the waster to destroy.[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
Your Faith tell you these things....



Our Faith tells us that God meant it to be so because...

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL: (not our will).

Your Faith tell you this....



When you read this...

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Our Faith tells us God sent him to do this very thing.....

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and HE (God) moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

He obviously sent Satan to 'move' David to do this. But what do all these scriptures mean to you and your schoolmaster Mike???

Do you NOW see the difference between WHAT God ALLOWS YOU and your schoolmasters (scholars, pastors, instructors)" to SEE/hear/understand and what He ALLOWS us to see and understand???



Again, they are GIVEN this understanding.

As for the parables, Jesus didn't begin to speak in parables until Israel made it clear that it was rejecting Christ as Messiah. That is when Jesus turned the focus of His message toward establishing His church.

Again, WHO gave them this blindness???



Red. Again, this MUST be a lie then "YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have chosen you"

Blue. No, God predestined HIS CHOSEN people to believe on Him. Again, please explain these verses to us sir. You keep ignoring all these type of verses, and we are debating on just ONE.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (the word 'should' is not in the manuscripts)

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



This is beating the proverbial 'dead horse' with you and you schoolmasters. Sufficient verses have been given to you, but if you don't 'hear or understand' the ones that I have been presenting to you, how are you going to 'hear or understand' any other??




A Loving Fathers 'CHASTISING' is one of correction, NOT torture. But...

Heb 12:11 ....NO chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.[SIZE=4] [/SIZE]

God is NOT the Father of the unbeliever. No one belongs to the family of God until and unless they believe in Christ. God's punishment of the unbeliever is not for correction. There is no purgatory. The punishment is punitive and it is eternal.

Your schoolmasters have 'seered' into your mind this 'torture' concept of theirs, and you believe it by the FAITH that THEY teach you.

To all that has been said by the SCRIPTURES, I will quote but one from a differing FAITH then mine.



You are a universalist with Calvinistic tendencies. Both are heretical. "I love you just the same though".

You screwed up the very last line of that post. The first two sentences about you being a universalist with Calvinistic tendencies and both are heretical are mine. That last sentence with that love stuff was yours. I don't want anyone to falsely think that I said that.

All right I can't work on this anymore. It is 4:15 A.M. and I should have been asleep hours ago.


I guess I am going to have to do a thread on man's free will.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Mike555

You screwed up the very last line of that post. The first two sentences about you being a universalist with Calvinistic tendencies and both are heretical are mine. That last sentence with that love stuff was yours. I don't want anyone to falsely think that I said that.

Don't worry. No one who has been reading your posts would think you said that.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

Don't worry. No one who has been reading your posts would think you said that.

I actually chuckled when I noticed it....

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

I actually chuckled when I noticed it....

I sprayed my coffee and almost hit the keyboard with it.

[joeallcomm]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I gave at least two verses I think. There are many more. But, the Scriptures only have to say something once for it to be true.

In correct, do you know the true meaning of this verse?

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Yes. You are incorrect. And yes. I will explain what being drawn means.

There is nothing mystical about the way God draws man to Him. John 6:45 explains it clearly. It's just one verse after John 6:44. John 6:45 ''It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

They shall all be taught. = The Gospel

Everyone --->Hear --->Learn--->Come.

And yet, it is IMPOSSIBLE to 'hear' and 'learn' (understand) if God makes one DEAF to hearing it, or until he 'opens' their 'ears'. Your formula should read.

THE ONE ---> that "I" open 'ears' of ---> will learn of me ---> will Come.

God draws or calls man through the Gospel. 2 Thess. 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.

God's 'CALLING' and God's 'CHOOSING' (not man's choosing) are two seperate things.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. (Again, this is GOD'S choosing, not man's)

And now we are back to the same verse that is so hard for you to believe in, which is...

Joh 15:16 YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have chosen you,...

How can one claim that he/she has chosen Christ, when He, HIMSELF, tells them FLAT OUT that "YE HAVE NOT". Let me ask you a plain straight forward question then sir, and we will see if you think your Lord Jesus is a liar.

DID YOU CHOOSE CHRIST??

There is a HUGE difference between being CALLED and being CHOSEN. Just as there is a HUGE difference between being CALLED and being DRAGGED.

You are applying a definition to 'free will' that is not warranted and then argueing against free will on the basis of an unwarrented definition. Free will, volition is nothing more and nothing less than the ability to make a choice between one thing and another thing. God made Adam in His image. That includes giving Adam free will. God then gave Adam a test for his free will. God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and gave Adam a command not to eat it. God knew that Adam would disobey Him and eat it. And God allowed it to happen. That is free will.

No...that is a Man's Will that is NOT FREE from external or emotional CAUSES. Lets go back to this garden you speak of Mike, and see what happened. First lets look at where sin comes from.

1Jo 2:16 For all (I am assuming 'all sin', would you agree) that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world

Now lets look at Eve BEFORE she ate of the tree but AFTER she was enticed by the serpent and see if she emulated any of this lust or pride. And always remember that the NAME of the tree was the Knowledge of GOOD and evil.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (flesh?), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (eyes?), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride?), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Well, it looks like she already had these things "IN" her BEFORE she sinned. But did she make this choice WITHOUT being CAUSED to do so? AFTER she ate of it God asked her....

Gen 3:13 ..... What is this that thou hast done?.....

To fit your arguement, we might say that God said, "What is this CHOICE that you have made". Yes, she made a choice, but was it WITHOUT any CAUSE??? No....here is the cause of her making her choice:

And the woman said, The serpent beguiled (Heb: SEDUCED) me, and I did eat.

Therefore, she CHOSE what she CHOSE, because she was SEDUCED in to making the CHOICE. The 'seduction' was the 'cause' Mike. Her choice was NOT free of MANIPULATION. There is a cause to everthing we choose.

Isa 3:12 .......O my people, they which lead thee CAUSE thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people CAUSE them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

This should be sufficient enough scripture to show that one is "caused" to do this or that. It is interesting in the manner of Prayer that Jesus showed us, it ended with...

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The bolded words are not there just to make a sentence longer. He CAN LEAD someone into temptation. Lets face it, if we want a snack, and we are looking at a moldy old pickle and a thick chocolatey brownie, we don't just CHOOSE the brownie. We CHOOSE the brownie beCAUSE it tastes better then a moldy pickle. Name one thing that you have ever chosen that did not FIRST have a 'cause'.

The ability to choose to obey or disobey God. Forget about all the philosophical mumbo jumbo. God gave man the abilty to say 'yes' or to say 'no'. God says 'Do this.' and man says, 'I will.' or 'I won't.'

Yes, and a man WILL do this, beCAUSE....
And he WILL NOT do this, beCAUSE....

Its not to hard to figure out. I assume you know you are a sinner (as am I), but ask yourself what CAUSES you to sin. You will undoubtedly come up with something in one of these catagories.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, ....

Doe's God ever overrule man's free will? I have already told you that He does. I have told you at least twice about God's overruling, directive, and permissive will. But not with regard to individual salvation. That is completely up to man. And man gets no credit because he is only saying yes to an offer that God has extended to him. You don't take credit for accepting a gift.

"ye HAVE NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...."

You can't even seem to understand what I said concerning the fact that it is God the Holy Spirit who makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer.

Does everybody have the Holy Spirit? If not how are they going to 'hear and understand'??

I said it plain as punch in the other post that it is God the Holy Spirit that makes the Gospel understandable, and you make the comment that 'I don't see that it is God who gives this hearing. '

Having comprehension problems are you?

Yes, plain as punch, that is why, if you go back and read it, I bolded/highlighted the words MAKES in your sentences. To let you know that the Holy Spirit CAUSES on to hear and understand.

What you are not seeing is that God DOES NOT GIVE THIS HEARING TO EVERYONE NOW, as Jesus stated. God BLOCKED them from hearing. So if they are NOT GIVEN the 'ears' to understand Mike, then HOW are they going to 'choose' WITH UNDERSTANDING? Jesus was talking to TWO groups of people, the CALLED (multitudes) and the CHOSEN (disciples). He spoke parables to the 'multitudes' and expounded (interpreted the parables) to HIS CHOSEN DISCIPLES. And remember, His CHOSEN at this time DID NOT UNDERSTAND UNTIL they recieved the Spirit. His disciples were CALLED by the Gospel FIRST (at this time, they did NOT understand), then Chosen BY GOD out of all the called SECOND (still no understanding), thirdly they ALL FORSOOK Him at His death (great CHOICE guys!), and then they were GIVEN the Spirit (and GIVEN understanding).

I think I already said something about that. But if not..., 'when man rejects the truth, then God will send a deluding influence so that that persons heart may be hardened. God does not do that unless a person has first shown rebelliousness against God. It also applys to Israel. Irsrael rejected Christ as the Messiah and was disciplined as a result, even to this very day. It will not be until the end of the Tribulation that Israel as a nation turns back to God. In the meantime, there will be a few individuals who of their own free will, will turn to God. But not as a nation.'

This blows my mind. You have written almost a whole paragraph of total TRUTH and I dont think you YOURSELF believes it. Firstly, tell me of one person, who has eaten of the tree, who has NOT rebelled against God. Are not ALL sinners? Then you tell me God will CAUSE their heart to be hardened (to this very day!!) by something HE does (giving this 'deluding influence'). Then you say that Israel will 'turn back to God' (I'm assumming by taking AWAY this 'deluding influence', which is something else CAUSED by God), But then, BUT THEN, you say 'there will be a few individuals who of their own free will, will turn to God'.

Given this paragraph of yours Mike, and given your reasoning that man is given 'freewill', please tell me something. WHAT pray-tell has happened to the people of Israel's FREEWILL for the last 2000 years. Are you telling me that there has been 19 or so generations of Israelites that lived and died a WHOLE LIFE here on earth WITHOUT FREEWILL, because of this 'deluding influence' thing that God gave them???

You might want to rewrite that paragraph sir, your starting to sound like one of us.

God is NOT the Father of the unbeliever. No one belongs to the family of God until and unless they believe in Christ. God's punishment of the unbeliever is not for correction. There is no purgatory. The punishment is punitive and it is eternal.

Again, we can debate the word "aion(ios)" again, if you wish.

You screwed up the very last line of that post. The first two sentences about you being a universalist with Calvinistic tendencies and both are heretical are mine. That last sentence with that love stuff was yours. I don't want anyone to falsely think that I said that.

All right I can't work on this anymore. It is 4:15 A.M. and I should have been asleep hours ago.

Yes, I noticed that when I came back to the thread, it was to late to edit it. I am sorry about that Mike. You take care and God Bless.

P.S. Truly do love ya though

I guess I am going to have to do a thread on man's free will.

Great! Will you 'take the time' to answer all those verses for me then.