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HAHAHAHA. The great delusion is nowhere even close to this. If it is close to anything, it is the LIE UR teaches.
Interesting....yet it is the Christian who claims that resurrection is here and now, those who confes to Christ. Sown...raised.
We die daily.
Blah Blah Blah. More UR rhetoric. Nothing to back it up.
The rest of your post was to say the least...eisegesis.
Well i can certainly understand why you might think as much ... If i am right and you are one who is so deluded, it would only be natural for you to believe that the fact that "God is the savior of the whole world" is in fact the great delusion.
If you are right then you will be happy with a few others like you and the rest of humanity will suffer for ever. If i am right we will all be joyous in the end together in Christ. I could never hope that what you believe is true because i love all people regardless of race or culture or creed. So i could never put my faith in the doctrine of everlasting evil, and its victory over Christ throughout most of Gods creation, which you preach.
After all Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... And in my opinion it is very telling, the type of people who have faith in eternal torment of most of creation and defend it so tenaciously and with such nonchalance or otherwise with vehemence. The fact that someone has faith in the doctrine of ET after being privy to all the evidences to the contrary, can only mean that they must hope that it is true. To me that says allot about the kind of person they are ... And that makes me sad.
I hope that God changes your heart sooner than later.
Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-06-2010 at 05:11 PM..
Well i can certainly understand why you might think as much ... If i am right and you are one who is so deluded, it would only be natural for you to believe that the fact that "God is the savior of the whole world" is in fact the great delusion.
Never said that.
Again...the URer imposes thoughts where there aren't any.
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If you are right then you will be happy with a few others like you and the rest of humanity will suffer for ever.
Well deserved. God's plan..not mine. None without excuse.
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If i am right we will all be joyous in the end together in Christ. I could never hope that what you believe is true because i love all people regardless of race or culture or creed. So i could never put my faith in the doctrine of everlasting evil, and its victory over Christ throughout most of Gods creation, which you preach.
....as you spit on the cross and on Paul's face as the axe lay on his neck.
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After all Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... And in my opinion it is very telling, the type of people who have faith in eternal torment of most of creation and defend it so tenaciously and with such nonchalance or otherwise with vehemence. The fact that someone has faith in the doctrine of ET after being privy to all the evidences to the contrary, can only mean that they must hope that it is true. To me that says allot about the kind of person they are ... And that makes me sad.
It couldn't be easier to discern.
It's like a neon flashing light..
Amen. The arrogance is disgustingly overt. The "fruit" of the heart is visible for all to see. The truth of Iron's words are underlined by the response to them. It is sad to see such callousness in support of evil and against love.
Never said that.
Again...the URer imposes thoughts where there aren't any.
You do not believe that God is the savior of the whole world ... You cant say that you believe he is the savior of the whole world and then say they the whole world will not be saved. That is an a oxymoron. You can say it, but you cant expect a rational person to take you serious when you do.
You contradict youself often ... Though you obviously are ignorant of the fact. I am not imposing anything ...
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Well deserved. God's plan..not mine. None without excuse.
I dont believe you are even able to accept what Gods plan truly isat this time because of your hardened heart. Anyone can read your words of late and see what you believe about God and love and mercy, you are not necessarily subtle about it.
No one needs an excuse thanks to what Christ did on the cross for us all ...
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....as you spit on the cross and on Paul's face as the axe lay on his neck.
Wow, thinking that Christ is the saviour of all men and that he was 100% victorious on the cross over sin and death throughout all creation and believing that his grace abounds wherever sin did abound and more abundently is spitting in his face? Believing that Gods word will accomplish whatever he pleases and that it will not return to him void is spitting in his face? Believing that God will actually accomplish his desire and will to have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth is spitting in his face?
Indeed ...
I believe that it is those who do not believe that God can or will accomplish his desire to save all people through the power of his word, and believing that Gods word who is Christ was not able to accomplish Gods desire to have all people saved, as it is written, are the ones who are guilty of such disrespect and dishonor.
I believe God will get everything he wants and desires, and you do not, and you say that i am spitting in Christs and Pauls face? Thats pretty twisted if someone where to ask me ...
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More rhetoric, no substance.....tissue?
Thank your for your concern and compassion, but no tissue needed.
Opinions are like pie holes, everyones got one. And a persons opinions say everything about where they are in their lives, and who they have become at this time ... I am confident that you will grow and eventually you will experience change in your life that will cause you to reevaluate your self and what you believe. We are all growing, some faster than others. Its only a matter of time after all ....
Nemaste ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-06-2010 at 09:29 PM..
You do not believe that God is the savior of the whole world ...
Never said that. I say the whole world will not inherit salvation.
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You cant say that you believe he is the savior of the whole world and then say they the whole world will not be saved.
Yes I can. The Church agrees with me. We disagreee with you.
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Wow, thinking that Christ is the saviour of all men and that he was 100% victorious on the cross over sin and death throughout all creation and believing that his grace abounds wherever sin did abound and more abundently is spitting in his face?
Nope. Believing that Satan and his angels will be redeemed is spitting on the cross and on Paul's face.
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Believing that Gods word will accomplish whatever he pleases and that it will not return to him void is spitting in his face? Believing that God will actually accomplish his desire and will to have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth is spitting in his face?
Eisegesis of the two inferred verses.
They don't purport what you propose here.
The rest of your post was repetitive, so excuse me if I don't repsond to it.
Never said that. I say the whole world will not inherit salvation.
If the whole world will not be saved, then God is not the savior of the whole world.
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Yes I can. The Church agrees with me. We disagreee with you.
Argument from authority, a logical phalacy, and irrelevant as evidence concerning the truth of these things. Especially in light of the fact that the vast majority of Christians in the first four centuries of the common era believed in universal salvation, and the fact that four of the six theological seminaries during that time taught UR while only one taught ET, and that was the scool in carthage, controlled by the latin west and under the direct influence of the Roman empire.
What the majority of believers actually believe concerning these things now is not what the majority of believers actually believed in the times of the apostles and for centuries thereafter.
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Nope. Believing that Satan and his angels will be redeemed is spitting on the cross and on Paul's face.
Rev 5:13
and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'
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Eisegesis of the two inferred verses.
They don't purport what you propose here.
The rest of your post was repetitive, so excuse me if I don't repsond to it
Call it what ever you want. It doesnt make it any less true. God desires that all people be saved, and Gods word will accomplish whatever he desires, regardless of what you or anyone else and the traditions of men that so many subscribe to has to say about it.
The traditions of men make the word of God to no avail, and when you teach that the word of God cannot or will not accomplish his desire to save all people, you are teaching that his word will return to him void. I wish you could understand that, and i hope and pray and i do truly believe in my heart that one day you and everyone else will in the end.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-06-2010 at 10:21 PM..
I always find it interesting when people use 2 Th 2:10 ... I honestly think that many people do not really even understand this verse.
What is "the love of the truth" ... ?
Well the question is who is "the truth"?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The love of the truth is the love of Christ. It is the love which Christ demonstrated when he walked among us ... The love which he taught, which is the love of ones neighbor as one self, as well as the love of ones enemies. This is the very same love which is described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:4 ...
So we see that those to whom God sends great delusion are those who do not have this love in their hearts, but only provide lip service to Christ. Those who are in fact the wicked servants that Christ described ...
So lets see how Christ described the wicked servants ...
Mat 18:23-32
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
And ...
Luk 19:12-27
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
So the wicked servants are people who, though they have been forgiven their sins and debt, refuse to forgive others their debts, and seek their condemnation and judgment. Also the wicked servants believe God to be an Austere man or being and fear him because of it. The word Austere in the Greek is austēros ...
austēros - 1) of mind and manners: harsh, rough, rigid
Main Entry: aus·tere
Pronunciation: \ȯ-ˈstir also -ˈster\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin austerus, from Greek austēros harsh, severe; akin to Greek hauos dry — more at sere
Date: 14th century 1 a:stern and cold in appearance or manner b:somber, grave <an austere critic> 2:morally strict:ascetic 3: markedly simple or unadorned <an austere office> <an austere style of writing> 4: giving little or no scope for pleasure <austere diets> 5of a wine: having the flavor of acid or tannin predominant over fruit flavors usually indicating a capacity for aging
The wicked servants will not forgive others, but condemn others and judge others even though they have been forgiven. And they live in fear of God as an angry and rough, or cold and strict dictator. They believe God is this way and so they are themselves this way, cold and strict, harsh and stern, judgmental and ruling/living in condemnation over the world.
In no way are the wicked servants described as being too loving, or too forgiving of others, or believing that God is too kind or loving towards humanity. In no way are the wicked servant described as believing that God will have all people to be saved, and is in fact the savior of all people, as the scritpures plainly state. In fact the wicked servants are by the description of Christ, the very opposite ...
Now it is important to note that Christ specifically stated that God was "kind to the unthankful and the evil", but these people do not really believe that. They believe god is austere and will condemn the "unthankful and the evil" for ever, which of course is infinitely opposite of being kind to them ...
Of course this is a picture of the Pharisees in Christs time, who believed themselves elect and saved, but all others damned and stood in hypocritical judgment over all others. It is so interesting to note that the pharisees, like modern day hell fire and brimstone fundamentalist Christians, believed that most people on earth would be condemned by God to everlasting torment after they died.
Josephus wrote concerning the pharisees that ...
Now when Christ spoke to the pharisees about judgment, he never once used any one of the phrases they used when referring to their doctrine of Eternal torment. According to Jospehus and Philo, the words that the pharisees used were "thanaton athanaton","eirgmon aidion","aidion timorion","thanaton ateleuteton", but Christ never used these phrases to describe judgment, neither are they found anywhere in the new or old testament. Instead Christ used "aionion kolasin" ...
I digress ...
I contend that it is in fact the doctrine of Eternal Torment that is the "great delusion" which God sent. And it is the leaven of the pharisees which Christ did refer to ... This doctrine is preferred by people like the pharisees because it strengthens their own elitist and self righteous view of their personal existence over most others in the world around them. It also quenches their thirst for revenge against their enemies, and supports their agendas for power and domination of others they would seek to put under themselves and rule over. Those who would stand between God and mankind. And it has has been proven throughout the past 1700 years that the doctrine leads to war, mass-murder, religious and ethnic cleansing and genocide, torture, etc ...
So the wicked servants are people who, though they have been forgiven their sins and debt, refuse to forgive others their debts, and seek their condemnation and judgment. Also the wicked servants believe God to be an Austere man or being and fear him because of it. The word Austere in the Greek is austēros ...
austēros - 1) of mind and manners: harsh, rough, rigid
Main Entry: aus·tere
Pronunciation: \ȯ-ˈstir also -ˈster\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin austerus, from Greek austēros harsh, severe; akin to Greek hauos dry — more at sere
Date: 14th century 1 a:stern and cold in appearance or manner b:somber, grave <an austere critic> 2:morally strict:ascetic 3: markedly simple or unadorned <an austere office> <an austere style of writing> 4: giving little or no scope for pleasure <austere diets> 5of a wine: having the flavor of acid or tannin predominant over fruit flavors usually indicating a capacity for aging
The wicked servants will not forgive others, but condemn others and judge others even though they have been forgiven. And they live in fear of God as an angry and rough, or cold and strict dictator. They believe God is this way and so they are themselves this way, cold and strict, harsh and stern, judgmental and ruling/living in condemnation over the world.
In no way are the wicked servants described as being too loving, or too forgiving of others, or believing that God is too kind or loving towards humanity. In no way are the wicked servant described as believing that God will have all people to be saved, and is in fact the savior of all people, as the scritpures plainly state. In fact the wicked servants are by the description of Christ, the very opposite ...
Now it is important to note that Christ specifically stated that God was "kind to the unthankful and the evil", but these people do not really believe that. They believe god is austere and will condemn the "unthankful and the evil" for ever, which of course is infinitely opposite of being kind to them ...
Of course this is a picture of the Pharisees in Christs time, who believed themselves elect and saved, but all others damned and stood in hypocritical judgment over all others. It is so interesting to note that the pharisees, like modern day hell fire and brimstone fundamentalist Christians, believed that most people on earth would be condemned by God to everlasting torment after they died.
Josephus wrote concerning the pharisees that ...
Now when Christ spoke to the pharisees about judgment, he never once used any one of the phrases they used when referring to their doctrine of Eternal torment. According to Jospehus and Philo, the words that the pharisees used were "thanaton athanaton","eirgmon aidion","aidion timorion","thanaton ateleuteton", but Christ never used these phrases to describe judgment, neither are they found anywhere in the new or old testament. Instead Christ used "aionion kolasin" ...
I digress ...
I contend that it is in fact the doctrine of Eternal Torment that is the "great delusion" which God sent. And it is the leaven of the pharisees which Christ did refer to ... This doctrine is preferred by people like the pharisees because it strengthens their own elitist and self righteous view of their personal existence over most others in the world around them. It also quenches their thirst for revenge against their enemies, and supports their agendas for power and domination of others they would seek to put under themselves and rule over. Those who would stand between God and mankind. And it has has been proven throughout the past 1700 years that the doctrine leads to war, mass-murder, religious and ethnic cleansing and genocide, torture, etc ...
Selah ...
Awesome post, Ironmaw. I cut a few things out in the quoted part, but only for sake of brevity since your entire post has been quoted several times. I appreciate your Iron, man!
If the whole world will not be saved, then God is not the savior of the whole world.
The whole world wasn't saved. God provided the means for salvation. That's it Ironmaw...why can't you believe this...whosoever believes....
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Argument from authority, a logical phalacy, and irrelevant as evidence concerning the truth of these things. Especially in light of the fact that the vast majority of Christians in the first four centuries of the common era believed in universal salvation,
Wrong! Maybe several churches held to the belief system, but those churches are gone now, and most of them either recanted or died.
Were you there to count the heads?
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and the fact that four of the six theological seminaries during that time taught UR while only one taught ET, and that was the scool in carthage, controlled by the latin west and under the direct influence of the Roman empire.
Gone now! The Holy Spirit took care of that now didn't He?
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What the majority of believers actually believe concerning these things now is not what the majority of believers actually believed in the times of the apostles and for centuries thereafter.
The apostles were full preterists
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Call it what ever you want. It doesnt make it any less true. God desires that all people be saved, and Gods word will accomplish whatever he desires, regardless of what you or anyone else and the traditions of men that so many subscribe to has to say about it.
Esisegesis again.
THELO does not imply God's given decree and will. It is simply a benign desire...that can be overturned just like the Jews did so in....Matt 23:37
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The traditions of men make the word of God to no avail, and when you teach that the word of God cannot or will not accomplish his desire to save all people, you are teaching that his word will return to him void. I wish you could understand that, and i hope and pray and i do truly believe in my heart that one day you and everyone else will in the end.
.
UR is the epitome of the traditions of men influence by pagan philosophies.
They sought the desires of the flesh. They could not accept God's nature.
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It is sad to see such callousness in support of evil and against love.
