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Old 06-16-2010, 04:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHeart View Post
And that's YOUR opinion and I do not agree with you. Many people hate the truth so much that they get angry when the truth is shared.

And do not be deceived... any gay man who refuses to repent, will never enter the kingdom of God. That is a biblical FACT!
Exactly. Jesus stands ready to set the sinner free. If the sinner refuses, death will be the wages of sin. Who in their right mind would work for such a wage as that?
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:15 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHeart View Post
And do not be deceived... any gay man who refuses to repent, will never enter the kingdom of God. That is a biblical FACT!

Everyone will repent of what they need to repent of because thats what God will bring everyone to do, however the problem with finger pointers such as you is that you refuse to see that by your own standard, you will not enter the kingdom, if your standard is true.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
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Well, all I can say about the Kingdom of Heaven or God or whatever you want to call it - if they don't let gays in then I don't want to be there either. I want to go where the gays are.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:31 PM
 
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Phazelwood, this is God`s standards, not mans. It`s true that men hate the truth because they want to live as they please.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
This is a very dark time in my life. Having last year come out of the closet as a gay man, I experienced endless mental torture from my family. In their church, homosexuality is the worst sin possible for mankind to commit, and they made sure I was aware of that almost every day by phone calls, text, email, or some other mention. But this isn't about homosexuality or trying to justify it. My family is very dear to me. I was raised in a strict Independent Fundamental Baptist church and when I was attending the church and following the rules, I was very close to my family. All of that changed when I came out gay and subsequently left the church. When most people in my shoes would disown their family in such a situation, I cannot bring myself to do it. My family means too much for me.

That said, upon a recent visit to them after not seeing them for a year, I went back into the closet and told them my homosexuality was just a phase and was now over it. In my heart, if being able to have a loving mom and dad means I must suppress my feelings towards other men, then so be it. Plus, the fact it was drilled into me every Sunday morning, night and Wednesday night for 22 years that homosexuality is at the top of God's list of abominations, much of my inner being believes that it is sinful and I will go to hell for living a homosexual lifestyle, whether I can change the feelings or not. So I have given that up.

While things were better for a little while, they have gotten much worse, almost as bad as it was when I told them I was gay. I missed church Sunday because I went to a local amusement park and was told that afternoon by my parents that I am headed for hell, they do not trust me at all, and they are ashamed of me. That same message was re-iterated to me on the phone tonight because I question that the earth might be older than 6,000 years. I get called a mocker and a scoffer by them. Truth is, as horrible as all this sounds, my parents do love me and these issues break their hearts because they really believe I will go to hell for them. The only way I can make them happy is to completely cut myself off from the world and find an old-fashioned, fundamental, Independent Baptist church and dedicate my entire life to God and the church. Once again, a big part of me sees this as the right thing to do. I feel like I am trying to justify sin in my life by posting this message.

That said, the other side of me has done research on religion and specifically the Independent Fundamental Baptist denomination and their cult-like beliefs. With them, its either you are with them or against them and there is no middle ground. I am not sure if the Bible is meant to be taken entirely literal or figuratively...though a figurative interpretation is damnable heresy in the church. I question why a God who hates homosexuals so much would allow me, son of an Independent Baptist preacher, to have homosexual tendencies. Through college and research my mind has been opened that I have difficult time believing whole-heartedly the earth is only 6,000 years old. Its getting very close to time I am going to have to face a decision I am dreading. I am either going to have to jump in the IFB cult wholeheartedly or disown my family entirely and live my own life. The religious side of me tells me the former will lead me to heaven while the latter will send me to hell.

One thing always taught to me growing up was that if you obey God He will bless you and if you do not obey you will be cursed. If I take the route of living my own life, I feel not only will I burn in hell, but I will have a life of sorrow and hardship as God pours out his wrath on me.

No matter which path I choose...I don't feel I will ever find peace. I can't turn to a more mainstream Christianity teaching God's love because my family will never accept that. Plus, I have a difficult time reconciling the notion of a loving God with the persona of God I grew up with: angry, vengeful, full of wrath, who is coming soon to destroy the world by fire and brimstone. I might as well go all out and be a gay atheist if I am going to go for a more liberal interpretation of Christianity. In fact, it would be easier to do. I wish I could become an atheist because I would have a much greater peace if there was no God than I do now knowing I am on the brink of God's wrath being unleashed on me, but I know in my heart God is real.

I know this has been a long post and I thank you for reading. I should probably seek counseling on this but I cannot afford it right now and I don't have job security. Any advice or further questions would be appreciated. I would like to find a solution that would be beneficial to both me and my family, but I cannot think of a way on my own that it could happen.
My heart goes out to you (this is not a perfunctory saying!). I am a sinner just like everyone else who believe in the redeeming love of our creator and the ransom paid on the cross...therefore...cannot pass judgment on anybody else's preconceived idea of SIN..."promiscuity" is...imho

However, this I know in my heart...the LORD loves you and fashioned you in the womb even when you were just a twinkle in your ancestor's eye toward the woman he loved...

May the Lord God Almighty keeps his comforting love wrapped around your troubled soul...trust in him always for he will not fail you!

And yes...HE IS REAL!!!
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:53 PM
 
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bchris02, I`m sorry for the way your family treated you. That`s not how Christ treats people. It seems to me that your family is far from being "Christ Like" right now. Maybe there not even Christian... I don`t know. There are a lot of people who go to church and claim Christianity but their behavior shows differntly.These type of churches that you are describing are messed up.
What I mean by this is that there is no grace and love just condemnation. Also, their doctrine is distorted.

Having said that, I do believe that Biblical doctrine states that homosexuality is a sin. Ultimately, you will have to decide for yourself what you believe. Whether the Bible is true or false. And I`m not talking about distorted doctrine but true Biblical doctrine.
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cl723 View Post
Phazelwood, this is God`s standards, not mans.

No, the declaration that homosexuality is a sin is not God's standard it is mans. You will not find anything in scripture declaring that homosexuality is a sin. In the old testament, you will find a male sex act described, but ignorance will cause that sex act to be associated with homosexuality as a whole when lesbians are not included in the description. It is well documented that sodomy is not a very healthy act no matter if it is male on male, or a man sodomizing his wife.

In the New Testament you will find aspects of behavior that are not confined to homosexuality, but concerning the behavior of anyones orientation because it is about selfish use of another for your own purposes, loveless relationships that have no care for the other person.

You will not find a passage condemning homosexuality, you have to rely on an inference of association that is false, unless you can prove how lesbians are men lying with men as with a woman.

The verses on male and female relationships is about monogomy and spiritual gender. True homosexual unions always have a gender displacement between them.

There are plenty of promiscuous people out there both homosexual and heterosexual, this is because many people use others for self gratification. When people start looking past the orientation and seeing what love looks like, then relationships of any orientation can be understood better concerning what works best.

Quote:
It`s true that men hate the truth because they want to live as they please.
This is a separate issue, first it must be proven that homosexuality is a sin. It has not and cannot be proven that it is, only false assertions and people continuing to believe it is all you will find, but that has nothing to do with truth.
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:18 PM
 
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Phazelwood, Yes, I have personaly read were it states that. You can twist it the way you want but it is what it is. I`m not going to debate this with you because you have already have made up your mind.
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
7,946 posts, read 14,611,059 times
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Originally Posted by denverian View Post
Well Chris, I'll give you my opinion as a gay man who was raised in a fairly fundamentalist (not as fundamental or extreme as yours) family. I decided in college to finally deal with my being gay, came out, told my family, and gave them the option for me to walk out the door and never see me again. They didn't take that option, but our relationship has been somewhat distant since then. I will say that I've never been that close to them, and have done quite well in creating my own family outside of my birth family for support and love, which is something many gay men end up doing in these situations.

You need to step back and take a look at your situation. Like you said, these people are basically in a controlling cult. You were raised in that environment and basically had to deal with your own homophobia in order to "come out". You're never going to change your family and pretending to be one of them will never make you happy either. I don't know how old you are (I'm thinking low 20s?) but you can get past your family. Unfortunately, it could be like dealing with the death of many loved ones at once. But it's the only way you'll find happiness. YOU know what you choose and don't choose. No God would create you this way only to send you to hell! You know this. They don't. They're wrong.

I would suggest leaving and keeping some sort of relationship with your family until you build a new family. By this, I mean making good friends, gay and gay-friendly. There are many gay-friendly churches out there where you could find support, love, and a shoulder to cry on. You can't blame yourself, hate yourself, or deny yourself the love that you can find elsewhere. You've got one life, so live it for you!

I came out to my parents 17 years ago. Now I have a partner of 14 years, two beautiful children, a wonderful church, loving friends and neighbors, and believe it or not, parents that come to visit and see their grandkids. Even without my parents and birth family, I'd still have a great life right now. Unfortunately, religion, and specifically fundamentalist religion, does a lot of damage to a lot of people in this world, and you're one of them. But you can move past it and have a wonderful life!
True, this is the hardest part. Right now, I am not sure going through this emotional torment of "losing" my family is worth it to live a lifestyle that I am not sure will even bring me happiness. Plus it hurts me knowing how much it would hurt them.

In my past year in the gay community, I have come to realize that the gay lifestyle (at least in bars and clubs) is pretty empty and superficial. Promiscuity is the name of the game and the only thing most people care about is physical appearance and who they are going to bed with that night. That's not all gay people (you are certainly an exception) but it goes for a majority of the people who frequent gay bars and clubs. Maybe there is another segment of the gay community out there that is not this way? The straight scene is the same way in the bars and clubs but straights have many other outlets to meet and mingle. What do gays have? Manhunt? Don't get me started on that.

Plus I don't really enjoy sodomy...I enjoy a deep emotional and spiritual connection with another man, well beyond what any straight man would desire.

So far I like the idea of distancing myself and setting boundries on where my parents can control me, but thats easier said than done. Every Sunday they call me and ask me if I went to church and where. If I don't talk to them about it they will assume I didn't go and I will have to hear my dad go berserk about it.

As for religion...I definitely don't want to give it up but I can't be part of the Independent Baptist cult and be happy with myself. That religion is about fear and control. I however have a difficult time grasping the concept of a more open, permissive God because its so different than the concept of God I grew up with. Maybe a minister at a more liberal church could help me with this? If I was to try some more liberal churches what denominations would be a good fit? One thing I've experienced is most young people who are religious gravitate towards the more conservative denominations. Nearly every liberal church I've attended has been a mostly older congregation. Are there open minded churches out there that are also popular with young people?

Thanks for all the replies by the way. Every one of them, on both sides of the issue, have been very helpful.
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,199 posts, read 20,132,304 times
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Move to New York! There are many younger, liberal, gay-loving churches here! And as for the gay scene - my closest gay friends are definitely not a part of it. My best friend has been with his boyfriend for 3 years. They met online and now live together very happily. I'm not much of a bar person/clubber so that is probably why my close friends are not either. What interests do you have? Do you like museums? Musicals? I'm not trying to say - well, you're gay so you must be artsy - it's just that I'm artsy so these are the types of outings I think of. I think you should move to New York City anyway - you'll be able to meet a lot more people who are similar to you.
I wish I could talk to your parents and tell them that parents love their children - no matter what. The most important thing to them should be your happiness. I know it wouldn't help - but I wish it would.
I admire the courage it must have taken you to even start to deal with all this. Just remember The Little Engine That Could! I think I can! I think I can! I think I can!
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