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Old 06-19-2010, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
Reputation: 437

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Gospel is the good news of salvation. Those who die having rejected the Gospel suffer the eternal consequences of separation from God in utter ruin and uselessness in the lake of fire.

If you truly BELIEVE the GOOD NEWS, what fruits are you going to produce???

 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Just a note on this verse. Jesus stated that men were blind... Yet we know that weren't literally blind (well except for the blind man ). So is the 'see' here 'to perceive' or 'to witness'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You put the cart before the horse. God knew in advance every decision that everyone would make with regard to any given situation, and so decreed that man's free will decisions would certainly come to pass. God's decree(s) make certain that which is reality. God also knew all the alternate decisions that man could have made with regard to any given situation but didn't make. Those alternate potential decisions were not decreed by God. They were left in the realm of 'what might of been'. In His omniscience, God knew from eternity past, the actual from the potential decisions of man. His decrees concern the actual and not the potential alternate decisions that might have been made.

Man's free will with regard to God's offer of salvation is either 'yes' or 'no.' Nothing more and nothing less.

You are right about one thing though. Satan has deceived you.

And again, 'shall not see life' is an absolute and means will NEVER see life.
"ouk opsetai zōēn" or "will not see life" would have been written using the word "oudepote" but it is not... why?

Matt. 7:23 uses oudepote ("never knew you") so why do you think that word was not used but it still means Never? Seems inconsistent with the Greek...

oudepote is an adverb that describes "knew" in Matt. 7:23 (and in all 16 usages) but ouk is a negative particle and cannot mean never in this context...
However it is used as an adverb in Matt. 1:25..

Why do you try to change scripture to fit your needs?
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:34 PM
 
51 posts, read 105,324 times
Reputation: 30
1st John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:35 PM
 
115 posts, read 110,483 times
Reputation: 22
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

>"ouk opsetai zōēn" or "will not see life" would have been written using the word "oudepote" but it is not... why?

Actually, the Greek reads "ouk ophtai zoen." I think you are confusing it with Matt. 7:23 which does use the word "oudepote."
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,109,662 times
Reputation: 866
So the way things sound, Christ died for the world, but the world doesn't want Him. He cannot be the saviour of all because only a few "choose Him" through their free will. He has failed to save all men.
Free will must not be tampered with by anyone, including God, because man's free will is sovereign and he must be "free" to choose. (So we cannot pray for the lost because God can do nothing about them anyway.)
So God is now wringing His hands, hoping that SOME will "use" their free will and "choose" Him. The parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the events of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, as well as others, are all false, since the sheep must choose, the coin must choose, the clay must "make itself moldable" and Lazarus must have "chosen Jesus" before being raised from the dead!

One responded to me on another forum that Christ is a man that extends a rope to another man fallen in a well. But she forgot to think that a man fallen in a well could very well be dead, unconscious or injured to the point of not being able to "help himself." I just can't believe that Jesus would just sit outside the well and tell others, "I've given him a chance; I can't do any more!"

The "God helps those who help themselves" doctrine seems to be a total affront on God's ability to save the man He created. We limit Him when we say that He "cannot save (beyond this life)", or He cannot "touch our free will," or He "cannot forgive." We are putting words in God's mouth, playing God, and belittling His ability to save. Who are we to say what God can and cannot do? He saved me, so He can save whoever He wants.

Of course God is holy! In fact, Jesus tells us to be "holy, as your Father in heaven is holy." How? Forgiving others.
Is God just? You bet! And mercy rejoices against judgement. "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." If you're expecting to see judgement, expect to see even more mercy.

Jesus came to demonstrate the nature of God. We shouldn't even BE on this forum debating about what God is like, because we can SEE what He is like by looking at Jesus.
What's Jesus like? Meek and lowly. Condemning the self-righteous, saving the lost, healing the sick, reconciling the world.
If He is going to be throwing people in a fiery furnace for eternity, He should've at least given us a demonstration of this "dark side." But we see nothing of it.

Nothing is impossible with God, not even the things that are impossible with man. And I have yet to find a verse that states that God "cannot override man's free will."
What I CAN find, in the Psalms, is how God causes men to reach a point where they call out to Him. Here, too, it is GOD who does the saving work, both before and after.

Blessings to all as we journey here,
brian
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:43 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
IYHO. But lets go with that. So... we all were unbelievers. I guess none of us are ever seeing life and God's wrath is going to abide on us all forever. According to your belief.
No. Not my humble opinion. My dogmatic, uncompromising assertion with regard to John 3:36.

As I am sure I said. THOSE WHO DIE NEVER HAVING BELIEVED IN CHRIST REMAIN UNDER GOD'S WRATH. They remain under the condemnation with which they were born into the world with. The only way to come out from under the sentence of condemnation is to believe in Christ.

I will put it another way. Everyone who is born, is born already under eternal condemnation. If a person goes through his entire life and then dies without ever having believed in Christ for salvation, he enters eternity under the very same condemnation he had while he was alive on the earth. Only believing in Christ for salvation, before you die removes the condemnation.

Those who do not understand this are not saved and will find themselves in the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41,46). And that again, is my dogmatic uncompromise assertion based on the word of God.

Many of you universalists have never understood the issue in salvation and probably never will. Therefore you are not saved, and you will find yourselves in hell, and rightfully so. And in view of your continued obstinate defiance of the truth, and your continuing efforts to lull the gullible into a false sense of security about their eternal future, I can't say that I have any sympathy for you. Those of you who continue to reject the truth, will remain therefore condemned by your rejection of the truth. So says the word of God.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,199 posts, read 20,121,575 times
Reputation: 22092
I'd like to ask a question - and please, please forgive me - I do not mean to offend. It just seems that there is always so much debating going on amongst Christians. You all quote the bible back and forth to each other and have so many different interpretations of what the same passages mean. And it seems that you base your whole belief on how you happen to interpret the different pasages. Do you ever just look in your heart or look to yourself to figure out what you think is right? I'm not trying to discount Christianity or discount the bible - but at some point - don't you have to decide what you believe based on yourself? It doesn't seem that everything in the bible is spelled out so clearly. Maybe there are not right or wrong answers. Maybe God did that on purpose. Just a thought. Please don't get mad!!! Like I said - I'm not trying to make waves - just curious!
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,989 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
So the way things sound, Christ died for the world, but the world doesn't want Him. He cannot be the saviour of all because only a few "choose Him" through their free will. He has failed to save all men.
Free will must not be tampered with by anyone, including God, because man's free will is sovereign and he must be "free" to choose. (So we cannot pray for the lost because God can do nothing about them anyway.)
So God is now wringing His hands, hoping that SOME will "use" their free will and "choose" Him. The parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the events of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, as well as others, are all false, since the sheep must choose, the coin must choose, the clay must "make itself moldable" and Lazarus must have "chosen Jesus" before being raised from the dead!

One responded to me on another forum that Christ is a man that extends a rope to another man fallen in a well. But she forgot to think that a man fallen in a well could very well be dead, unconscious or injured to the point of not being able to "help himself." I just can't believe that Jesus would just sit outside the well and tell others, "I've given him a chance; I can't do any more!"

The "God helps those who help themselves" doctrine seems to be a total affront on God's ability to save the man He created. We limit Him when we say that He "cannot save (beyond this life)", or He cannot "touch our free will," or He "cannot forgive." We are putting words in God's mouth, playing God, and belittling His ability to save. Who are we to say what God can and cannot do? He saved me, so He can save whoever He wants.

Of course God is holy! In fact, Jesus tells us to be "holy, as your Father in heaven is holy." How? Forgiving others.
Is God just? You bet! And mercy rejoices against judgement. "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." If you're expecting to see judgement, expect to see even more mercy.

Jesus came to demonstrate the nature of God. We shouldn't even BE on this forum debating about what God is like, because we can SEE what He is like by looking at Jesus.
What's Jesus like? Meek and lowly. Condemning the self-righteous, saving the lost, healing the sick, reconciling the world.
If He is going to be throwing people in a fiery furnace for eternity, He should've at least given us a demonstration of this "dark side." But we see nothing of it.

Nothing is impossible with God, not even the things that are impossible with man. And I have yet to find a verse that states that God "cannot override man's free will."
What I CAN find, in the Psalms, is how God causes men to reach a point where they call out to Him. Here, too, it is GOD who does the saving work, both before and after.

Blessings to all as we journey here,
brian
Tried to rep you, Brian. Thanks for the reminders, especially the part in green.

We tend to forget after awhile that we were ONCE wandering around in the dark until something bonked us on the head, opened our eyes, and PULLED us out.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:52 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,415,727 times
Reputation: 5146
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
So the way things sound, Christ died for the world, but the world doesn't want Him. He cannot be the saviour of all because only a few "choose Him" through their free will. He has failed to save all men.
Free will must not be tampered with by anyone, including God, because man's free will is sovereign and he must be "free" to choose. (So we cannot pray for the lost because God can do nothing about them anyway.)
So God is now wringing His hands, hoping that SOME will "use" their free will and "choose" Him. The parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the events of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, as well as others, are all false, since the sheep must choose, the coin must choose, the clay must "make itself moldable" and Lazarus must have "chosen Jesus" before being raised from the dead!

One responded to me on another forum that Christ is a man that extends a rope to another man fallen in a well. But she forgot to think that a man fallen in a well could very well be dead, unconscious or injured to the point of not being able to "help himself." I just can't believe that Jesus would just sit outside the well and tell others, "I've given him a chance; I can't do any more!"

The "God helps those who help themselves" doctrine seems to be a total affront on God's ability to save the man He created. We limit Him when we say that He "cannot save (beyond this life)", or He cannot "touch our free will," or He "cannot forgive." We are putting words in God's mouth, playing God, and belittling His ability to save. Who are we to say what God can and cannot do? He saved me, so He can save whoever He wants.

Of course God is holy! In fact, Jesus tells us to be "holy, as your Father in heaven is holy." How? Forgiving others.
Is God just? You bet! And mercy rejoices against judgement. "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." If you're expecting to see judgement, expect to see even more mercy.

Jesus came to demonstrate the nature of God. We shouldn't even BE on this forum debating about what God is like, because we can SEE what He is like by looking at Jesus.
What's Jesus like? Meek and lowly. Condemning the self-righteous, saving the lost, healing the sick, reconciling the world.
If He is going to be throwing people in a fiery furnace for eternity, He should've at least given us a demonstration of this "dark side." But we see nothing of it.

Nothing is impossible with God, not even the things that are impossible with man. And I have yet to find a verse that states that God "cannot override man's free will."
What I CAN find, in the Psalms, is how God causes men to reach a point where they call out to Him. Here, too, it is GOD who does the saving work, both before and after.

Blessings to all as we journey here,
brian
 
Old 06-19-2010, 01:53 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
"ouk opsetai zōēn" or "will not see life" would have been written using the word "oudepote" but it is not... why?

Matt. 7:23 uses oudepote ("never knew you") so why do you think that word was not used but it still means Never? Seems inconsistent with the Greek...

oudepote is an adverb that describes "knew" in Matt. 7:23 (and in all 16 usages) but ouk is a negative particle and cannot mean never in this context...
However it is used as an adverb in Matt. 1:25..

Why do you try to change scripture to fit your needs?
It is not I who change the Scriptures. 'Will not see life' means exactly that. There is no inference in that scripture to temporarily not seeing life. It is clear in its meaning. Those who die without Christ will never see life. They are eternally lost.
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