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Old 06-19-2010, 03:07 PM
 
51 posts, read 105,685 times
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How deep an intellect does it take to know Jesus? Jesus said this to His followers when they were trying to prevent little children from coming to Him in Matthew 19:

13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

14Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

I remembered this from a few years back & found it again.It was from a man who loved God with all the intellect that God had given Him.Probably the most profound thing he ever said is found in this story:
Karl Barth, a world-famous Swiss theologian, gave a last lecture across the United
States shortly before his death. A student in one of his seminars could not fully
understand Barth’s complex ideas and theology. So he asked him, “I know you have
written volumes and volumes of theology, but can you sum up your theology in a single
sentence?” Then the famous theologian answered, “Yes. Jesus loves me, this I know,
for the Bible tells me so!”

 
Old 06-19-2010, 03:37 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,696,619 times
Reputation: 7461
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
So the way things sound, Christ died for the world, but the world doesn't want Him. He cannot be the saviour of all because only a few "choose Him" through their free will. He has failed to save all men.
Free will must not be tampered with by anyone, including God, because man's free will is sovereign and he must be "free" to choose. (So we cannot pray for the lost because God can do nothing about them anyway.)
So God is now wringing His hands, hoping that SOME will "use" their free will and "choose" Him. The parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the events of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, as well as others, are all false, since the sheep must choose, the coin must choose, the clay must "make itself moldable" and Lazarus must have "chosen Jesus" before being raised from the dead!

One responded to me on another forum that Christ is a man that extends a rope to another man fallen in a well. But she forgot to think that a man fallen in a well could very well be dead, unconscious or injured to the point of not being able to "help himself." I just can't believe that Jesus would just sit outside the well and tell others, "I've given him a chance; I can't do any more!"

The "God helps those who help themselves" doctrine seems to be a total affront on God's ability to save the man He created. We limit Him when we say that He "cannot save (beyond this life)", or He cannot "touch our free will," or He "cannot forgive." We are putting words in God's mouth, playing God, and belittling His ability to save. Who are we to say what God can and cannot do? He saved me, so He can save whoever He wants.

Of course God is holy! In fact, Jesus tells us to be "holy, as your Father in heaven is holy." How? Forgiving others.
Is God just? You bet! And mercy rejoices against judgement. "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." If you're expecting to see judgement, expect to see even more mercy.

Jesus came to demonstrate the nature of God. We shouldn't even BE on this forum debating about what God is like, because we can SEE what He is like by looking at Jesus.
What's Jesus like? Meek and lowly. Condemning the self-righteous, saving the lost, healing the sick, reconciling the world.
If He is going to be throwing people in a fiery furnace for eternity, He should've at least given us a demonstration of this "dark side." But we see nothing of it.

Nothing is impossible with God, not even the things that are impossible with man. And I have yet to find a verse that states that God "cannot override man's free will."
What I CAN find, in the Psalms, is how God causes men to reach a point where they call out to Him. Here, too, it is GOD who does the saving work, both before and after.

Blessings to all as we journey here,
brian
What is Jesus like you ask? Here is a description of Christ at His second coming.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war. [12] And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself. [13] And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. [15] And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. [16] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ''KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.''[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, 'Come, assemble for the great supper of God; [18] in order that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.'' [19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.

[20] And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. [21] And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

When Jesus came the first time, He came to provide salvation, and He came as the suffering servant. But when He comes again, He comes as the judge who will slay His enemies as described in Revelation 19:11- 21.


And Jesus Christ at the Great white throne judgment at the end ot the Millennium...

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat pon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing befoe the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. [14] And death and Hades were thrown into the lke of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown nto the lake of fire.

God gives a period of grace in which all may be saved. That period is limited to the lifetime of the individual. After death, it is to late to make a choice.

And the passages above, one regarding the second coming of Christ, and the other regarding the judgment at the end of the Millennium, show the Lord as judge and slayer of His enemies. He will not be the suffering servant that He was the first time He came.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,118,767 times
Reputation: 866
Hi Mike555,
I believe the second coming is occuring daily in the saints in whom God is revealing His Son. The antichrist, beast and devil are the flesh of man, which must be subdued by the brightness of His coming WITHIN us.
We must begin to realize Christ IN us is our hope of glory, nothing else. He must increase, but we must decrease.

God is revealing His Son in individuals at this time; when the fulness of the gentiles is brought in, then He will reveal Himself to the Jewish nation.
It is the serpent in man which is to be cast out; the son of perdition, which sits on the throne declaring that he is god.
God will cast this serpent out of all men and dwell in him. This is heaven.

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 06-19-2010, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,196 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What is Jesus like you ask? Here is a description of Christ at His second coming.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war. [12] And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself. [13] And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. [15] And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. [16] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ''KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.''[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, 'Come, assemble for the great supper of God; [18] in order that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.'' [19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.

[20] And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. [21] And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

When Jesus came the first time, He came to provide salvation, and He came as the suffering servant. But when He comes again, He comes as the judge who will slay His enemies as described in Revelation 19:11- 21.


And Jesus Christ at the Great white throne judgment at the end ot the Millennium...

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat pon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. [12] And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing befoe the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. [14] And death and Hades were thrown into the lke of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown nto the lake of fire.

God gives a period of grace in which all may be saved. That period is limited to the lifetime of the individual. After death, it is to late to make a choice.

And the passages above, one regarding the second coming of Christ, and the other regarding the judgment at the end of the Millennium, show the Lord as judge and slayer of His enemies. He will not be the suffering servant that He was the first time He came.
Please show us from scripture that after death it will be "too late."

Jesus spoke to individuals who thought there was no resurrection from the dead. For them, it was "too late" after you die for anything. You turn back to dust. Boy, won't they be surprised? Death means absolutely NOTHING to God. ANY kind of death.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 05:18 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,696,619 times
Reputation: 7461
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Mike555,
I believe the second coming is occuring daily in the saints in whom God is revealing His Son. The antichrist, beast and devil are the flesh of man, which must be subdued by the brightness of His coming WITHIN us.
We must begin to realize Christ IN us is our hope of glory, nothing else. He must increase, but we must decrease.

God is revealing His Son in individuals at this time; when the fulness of the gentiles is brought in, then He will reveal Himself to the Jewish nation.
It is the serpent in man which is to be cast out; the son of perdition, which sits on the throne declaring that he is god.
God will cast this serpent out of all men and dwell in him. This is heaven.

Blessings,
brian
Your beliefs are in direct contradiction to the word of God. The second coming is when Christ returns at the end of the tribulation to rescue Israel. There is no getting through to people who insist on spiritualizing and allegorizing the entirety of the Bible. Stay then in your fantasy land beliefs .
 
Old 06-19-2010, 05:26 PM
 
365 posts, read 425,291 times
Reputation: 86
Many Christians today usually teach justification by faith and grace alone correctly, but they then ADD to the sanctification process by believing to remain saved and remain accepted by God they now need to perform works and deeds to remain saved!

The problem with many today is that they ADD to grace and falsely believing that there still exists a sin problem. If we still had a sin problem that means Jesus' death at Calvary was a scam and not enough to save us.

That is the exact same gospel of works that Paul rebuked at Galatia when he said, "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"

Notice carefully the similarities between them and many Christians today. Both camps start with Jesus but then ADDS HUMAN WORKS!!!

Paul says that the false gospel teaches that we start our Christian walk by having faith in Jesus and after this we must add human effort to remain saved!

So the FALSE GOSPEL they believed in then and that many Christians believe today is we get saved initially by faith in Jesus but we then must add our human works to stay saved.

“After beginning with the Spirit you are now trying to attain your goal by human effort.” - Galatians 3:3

The New Century Version puts it like this: “You began your life in Christ by the Spirit. Now are you trying to make it complete by your own power?”

So the false gospel doesn’t try to tell you that faith in Jesus is not necessary. It is saying that faith in Jesus is not enough!!! And that is what the false teachers of today will tell you!

The false gospel of Christ, the false message of salvation is faith in Jesus PLUS human effort!

So this dangerous and false gospel that still exists today, is not salvation by works per se, but salvation by faith PLUS works. Unfortunately, this means then in reality that many Christians have 2 Saviours... Part Jesus, and part themselves!

Any message about faith in Jesus’ death for salvation, that adds human efforts into the equation, according to Paul “is really no gospel at all” Gal 1:7.

This means that the TRUE and only gospel of Christ is faith alone in the works of Jesus and the dying of Jesus. Having Jesus as your 100% Saviour.

Jesus must become your complete, total 100% Saviour.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 05:57 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,696,619 times
Reputation: 7461
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Please show us from scripture that after death it will be "too late."

Jesus spoke to individuals who thought there was no resurrection from the dead. For them, it was "too late" after you die for anything. You turn back to dust. Boy, won't they be surprised? Death means absolutely NOTHING to God. ANY kind of death.
What! Again? It's done no good in the past! But you speak of the resurrection. I will point out the resurrection of the damned.

Dan 12:1 ''Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book will be rescued. [2] ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

The contrast is between the believer who is resurrected to everlasting life, and the unbeliever who is resurrected to everlasting destruction. Everlasting destruction is the status of the unbeliever in the lake of fire, where he is in an eternal state of utter ruin and uselessness and torment.

John 5:28 ''Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, [29] and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.'

The same contrast between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked (unbelievers).

Acts 24:15 'having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Three passages all of which speak of the separate resurrections of the righteous and the wicked. The wicked are all unbelievers. The wicked are all resurrected at the same time at the end of the Millennium and are seen in Revelation 20:11-15. They are referred to in Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,196 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What! Again? It's done no good in the past! But you speak of the resurrection. I will point out the resurrection of the damned.

Dan 12:1 ''Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book will be rescued. [2] ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

The contrast is between the believer who is resurrected to everlasting life, and the unbeliever who is resurrected to everlasting destruction. Everlasting destruction is the status of the unbeliever in the lake of fire, where he is in an eternal state of utter ruin and uselessness and torment.

John 5:28 ''Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, [29] and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.'

The same contrast between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked (unbelievers).

Acts 24:15 'having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Three passages all of which speak of the separate resurrections of the righteous and the wicked. The wicked are all unbelievers. The wicked are all resurrected at the same time at the end of the Millennium and are seen in Revelation 20:11-15. They are referred to in Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
How in the world do these scriptures prove it is "too late?" When will Sodom be restored? Is it "too late" for them?

Hmmm.......
 
Old 06-19-2010, 06:15 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,696,619 times
Reputation: 7461
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
How in the world do these scriptures prove it is "too late?" When will Sodom be restored? Is it "too late" for them?

Hmmm.......
Sodom is one of the cities of Israel. When Israel is restored at the second coming of Christ, all the cities of Israel will be restored. That does not mean that the people who died when Sodom was destroyed are going to be restored to live in those cities.

I told you. I have already in the past brought up the passages that show that after death it is too late to change your mind. You brought up the resurrection and I pointed out the resurrection of the wicked.

I am not going to continue to waste my time on those who are obstinately opposed to the truth. If you will not listen and accept the truth, then you stand condemned by your rejection of the truth.
 
Old 06-19-2010, 06:28 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,424,181 times
Reputation: 5147
Default "the truth"

Isaiah 53:5-6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; AND WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED.

ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD HATH LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL.....

MY GOD, my LORD, my SAVIOUR AND REDEEMER, TO YOU I COMMIT MY SPIRIT!
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