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What I said in post #81 is presented below. The word 'only' is nowhere to be found.
God loves His own integrity, His own righteousness above all else.
Above all else kinda implies only, IMO. But then again maybe you just feel that loving YOUR OWN righteousness above all else is somehow commendable. DO YOU love your own righteousness above all else?
To me that contradicts what John states in 1 John 4:7-8. If God is love and it is his love that compels us to love him (1 John 4:19)... then how can you say he loves his own righteousness above all else? Wouldn't that cause a contradiction in the scripture?
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He will never compromise His integrity and in fact He can't.
So now God is compromising his integrity by loving sinners? or all his creation for that matter?
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It's impossible. It is the justice of God that will leave in eternal condemnation those who die without Christ.
Do you understand what condemnation is? Condemnation is not a verdict or a sentence to judgment!
So really those under condemnation will be punished... but what punishment will be given? You say burning in hell.... I say none!
Why? Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
All men here is all men, right?
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God's love doesn't save anyone.
God is LOVE so reason that out... Does God save people? YES then LOVE saves people. Obviously you ignore what love is and it's relationship to God as God's very essence!
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God's love only motivated Him to provide salvation for those who believe in Christ.
An offer of salvation makes the acceptor into the savior and belittles the saving grace of God....
I guess then that lifesaving equipment manufacturers are real heroes!
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It was God's justice in imputing the personal sins of the human race to Christ on the Cross and judging those sins that provides salvation for those who have faith in Christ. It is the same justice that leaves in condemnation all who reject Christ as Savior.
So the weight of those sins are still on Christ for those that reject him? Didn't you already say that every sin ever committed or being committed have been atoned for by Christ on the cross? So what sin remains to be condemned for?
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All who die without Christ remain under the eternal condemnation under which they were born into the world.
So you think that Romans 5:18 is a bunch of hogwash?
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Only a fool denies that man has free will. God gave man free will so that he can choose for or against Christ.
There you are wrong. Free will is not about having choices. As someone else stated, if that were true then computers have free will. Free will is being able to make a choice independent of all other factors. We don't have free will. God has free will... every decision made by humans is influenced by and dependent upon other factors.
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1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Do not obey = free will. The ability to choose to obey (believe) or to choose not to.
see above
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John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life.
You are unwilling to come to Me = free will. The ability to choose to answer God's call and come to Christ for salvation or to choose not to answer.
Acts 7:51 ''You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit...
Always resisting the Holy Spirit = free will. The ability to choose to resist or not to resist.
2 Thess 2:10 ...and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. [11] And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, [12] in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
And that, despite the fact that God desires that all men be saved as per 1 Tim. 2:4
Do you ever take into account who was being spoken to? Because if Paul was writing a letter to the church exhorting them to witness and pray for all men.. then the motivation is that God wants all men to come to him. There is nothing in that passage that states God doesn't get what he wants! But you seem to portray Paul as a wishy washy sort who contradicts himself at every turn!
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And so again, John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.
SHALL NOT SEE LIFE!!! SHALL NOT SEE LIFE!!! SHALL NOT SEE LIFE!!!
Do you see life? Do you perceive the greatness of God's love toward sinners? I posted in response to this already. SEE is spiritual. LIFE is eternal life (to know God and his son) and yet you still don't get it!
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That's an absolute. Shall NEVER see life.
NO! The word "not" is not an adverb. It's usage cannot be NEVER for it adds to "will see" and is not "will not". Again I explained this and you ignored it while continuing to spread these... untruths!
[quote]
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Those who die not having believed in Christ for salvation, shall never see life.
NOOOOOOO there is nothing in that verse to indicate that they die and don't see life. In fact, you said yourself that they are resurrected (to life) in order to be thrown in the lake of fire to burn forever. So first, you are wrong because by your own admission they are given immortality and second, you are wrong because the verse has nothing to say about death first then not seeing life. The verse is clearly talking about not seeing life while living!
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Not cessation of existence, but complete and utter ruin and uselessness in torment in the lake of fire for all eternity looking toward the future.
see above!
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THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES-REMAINS ON HIM!!!
THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES-REMAINS ON HIM!!!
THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES-REMAINS ON HIM!!!
Can you show me verses that explain how God's wrath is an afterlife concept? In the bible it is usually for those people ALIVE at the time.
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God offers salvation through faith in Christ and places the responsibility on man to accept the offer in order to be saved.
Then man is the savior and not GOD because the offer was from the beginning! (John 1). Therefore, the offer of salvation was given to Abraham, Isaac, Adam, Moses..... I could go on. God's plan did not change!
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Those who end up in the lake of fire end up there as a result of their own rejection of Jesus Christ.
Then they are the authors of their fate and God/Christ has nothing to do with it. You are all over the place in your application of verses and terms.
You answered as I thought you would. You posted a few verses to pretend like you had an answer, when none of these verses come close to saying that above all else, God loves His own integrity, righteousness, holiness, or glory. IMO, your claim is the same as saying that God loves Himself above all else and there are no scriptures to support your claim.
Yes that IS what he is saying! God is selfish and petty according to him!
And everytime you ask him about it he comes up with a new rule God must abide by!
Bottom LINE: There is no scripture to support this selfish and petty ego maniacal god!
[quote=katjonjj;14696910]Above all else kinda implies only, IMO. But then again maybe you just feel that loving YOUR OWN righteousness above all else is somehow commendable. DO YOU love your own righteousness above all else?
To me that contradicts what John states in 1 John 4:7-8. If God is love and it is his love that compels us to love him (1 John 4:19)... then how can you say he loves his own righteousness above all else? Wouldn't that cause a contradiction in the scripture?
So now God is compromising his integrity by loving sinners? or all his creation for that matter?
Do you understand what condemnation is? Condemnation is not a verdict or a sentence to judgment!
So really those under condemnation will be punished... but what punishment will be given? You say burning in hell.... I say none!
Why? Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
All men here is all men, right?
God is LOVE so reason that out... Does God save people? YES then LOVE saves people. Obviously you ignore what love is and it's relationship to God as God's very essence!
An offer of salvation makes the acceptor into the savior and belittles the saving grace of God....
I guess then that lifesaving equipment manufacturers are real heroes!
So the weight of those sins are still on Christ for those that reject him? Didn't you already say that every sin ever committed or being committed have been atoned for by Christ on the cross? So what sin remains to be condemned for?
So you think that Romans 5:18 is a bunch of hogwash?
There you are wrong. Free will is not about having choices. As someone else stated, if that were true then computers have free will. Free will is being able to make a choice independent of all other factors. We don't have free will. God has free will... every decision made by humans is influenced by and dependent upon other factors.
see above
Do you ever take into account who was being spoken to? Because if Paul was writing a letter to the church exhorting them to witness and pray for all men.. then the motivation is that God wants all men to come to him. There is nothing in that passage that states God doesn't get what he wants! But you seem to portray Paul as a wishy washy sort who contradicts himself at every turn!
Do you see life? Do you perceive the greatness of God's love toward sinners? I posted in response to this already. SEE is spiritual. LIFE is eternal life (to know God and his son) and yet you still don't get it!
NO! The word "not" is not an adverb. It's usage cannot be NEVER for it adds to "will see" and is not "will not". Again I explained this and you ignored it while continuing to spread these... untruths!
Quote:
NOOOOOOO there is nothing in that verse to indicate that they die and don't see life. In fact, you said yourself that they are resurrected (to life) in order to be thrown in the lake of fire to burn forever. So first, you are wrong because by your own admission they are given immortality and second, you are wrong because the verse has nothing to say about death first then not seeing life. The verse is clearly talking about not seeing life while living!
see above!
Can you show me verses that explain how God's wrath is an afterlife concept? In the bible it is usually for those people ALIVE at the time.
Then man is the savior and not GOD because the offer was from the beginning! (John 1). Therefore, the offer of salvation was given to Abraham, Isaac, Adam, Moses..... I could go on. God's plan did not change!
Then they are the authors of their fate and God/Christ has nothing to do with it. You are all over the place in your application of verses and terms.
You are wrong in all of your objections.
Unless you come to your senses and come to a knowledge of who and what Jesus really is, you will remain under eternal condemnation and find yourself in the lake of fire forever.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-20-2010 at 02:53 PM..
You answered as I thought you would. You posted a few verses to pretend like you had an answer, when none of these verses come close to saying that above all else, God loves His own integrity, righteousness, holiness, or glory. IMO, your claim is the same as saying that God loves Himself above all else and there are no scriptures to support your claim.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
Yes that IS what he is saying! God is selfish and petty according to him!
And everytime you ask him about it he comes up with a new rule God must abide by!
Bottom LINE: There is no scripture to support this selfish and petty ego maniacal god!
And what these two are refering to is post #137 which I have posted again below. These passages show the holiness of God and the value He places on His holiness. The above two posters are but two of many who reject the word of God while claiming to be Christian.
For one. Exodus 15:11. Who is like unto thee. O LORD, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
For another, In Isaiah's vision where he sees the Lord sitting on a throne in Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphim; each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he did fly. [3] And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, ''I dwell in a high and holy place...
Isaiah 42:8 ''I am the LORD, that is my name; I will not give my glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
The word of God speaks more about His holiness than it does about His love. And God is never said to be love, love, love. But He is said to be holy, holy, holy.
God's holiness is more important to Him than anything else.
Mike... If I quote your post, it will look like YOU said half my post...
So I will just respond without quoting it.
That whole post I responded to and you have nothing more to say than try to tell me what will happen if I don't conform to your thoughts, and ideals?
Sad... especially since all you did was copy and paste another post which I had asked about before (as did others)... but still no answer or rebuttal. It seems that when you can't refute something you point the finger at the other person and say it is their fault.
And what these two are refering to is post #137 which I have posted again below. These passages show the holiness of God and the value He places on His holiness. The above two posters are but two of many who reject the word of God while claiming to be Christian.
Ok.. so now rejecting your version of the word of God is un-Christian? Well I accept that!
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For one. Exodus 15:11. Who is like unto thee. O LORD, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
Is this God talking to God? Or man talking to God. I don't think either of us will disagree that God is glorious in holiness...etc.
But how is that indicative of GOD valuing HIS OWN HOLINESS?
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For another, In Isaiah's vision where he sees the Lord sitting on a throne in Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphim; each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he did fly. [3] And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, ''I dwell in a high and holy place...
Isaiah 42:8 ''I am the LORD, that is my name; I will not give my glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
HUH?
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The word of God speaks more about His holiness than it does about His love. And God is never said to be love, love, love. But He is said to be holy, holy, holy.
So because it says God is holy more than God is love... holy means cruelty toward sinners? If you burned your dog for failing to listen to you... would that be considered holy?
God is holy. It is to his glory that sinners are saved without a lick of work being done by them.
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God's holiness is more important to Him than anything else.
These nominal statements of holiness are not any kind of indication that God's holiness is more important to him than anything.
If that were the case then to Christians, God's torture of unbelievers is more to them than loving their neighbor because they talk about it far more!
Is that the case?
You yourself have said that God IS LOVE and IS HOLY. How torturing humans forever in a lake of fire qualifies as LOVE or HOLY... IDK.
Mike... If I quote your post, it will look like YOU said half my post...
So I will just respond without quoting it.
That whole post I responded to and you have nothing more to say than try to tell me what will happen if I don't conform to your thoughts, and ideals?
I went back and added that you are wrong in all your objections.
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Sad... especially since all you did was copy and paste another post which I had asked about before (as did others)... but still no answer or rebuttal. It seems that when you can't refute something you point the finger at the other person and say it is their fault.
Hmmmmm.
I reposted that post because it absolutely shows the value that God places on His holiness. That you reject it shows your opposition to the truth.
You are in direct contradiction of the word of God in so very many ways. You don't believe in the trinity, you don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, you don't believe in heaven, you don't believe in hell, you don't believe in Satan or in demons, or in angels in general as real and literal beings, you don't believe in the rapture, you do believe that Jesus sinned while on earth, you don't believe the the still to come Tribulation, you do believe in the false doctrine of Universalism.
You are not a Christian. Yours are cultish beliefs. And I truly believe that you are beyond help. Therefore I will waste no more time presenting the truth to you.
I went back and added that you are wrong in all your objections.
Nice, but I was actually referring to the fact that you have the quotes all messed up. Half my post is not in quotes so it looks like YOU said it... but if you are fine with that...ok.
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I reposted that post because it absolutely shows the value that God places on His holiness. That you reject it shows your opposition to the truth.
You are in direct contradiction of the word of God in so very many ways. You don't believe in the trinity, you don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, you don't believe in heaven, you don't believe in hell, you don't believe in Satan or in demons, or in angels in general as real and literal beings, you don't believe in the rapture, you do believe that Jesus sinned while on earth, you don't believe the the still to come Tribulation, you do believe in the false doctrine of Universalism.
I wondered when you would resort to this....
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You are not a Christian. Yours are cultish beliefs. And I truly believe that you are beyond help. Therefore I will waste no more time presenting the truth to you.
And this
I see that you have no refutation of what I have said and since you don't wish to logically, or otherwise, defend your position, I guess you don't really believe it yourself.
Nice, but I was actually referring to the fact that you have the quotes all messed up. Half my post is not in quotes so it looks like YOU said it... but if you are fine with that...ok.
I wondered when you would resort to this....
And this
I see that you have no refutation of what I have said and since you don't wish to logically, or otherwise, defend your position, I guess you don't really believe it yourself.
Your attempts at logic would have Mr. Spock rolling on the ground in gut busting laughter. Nothing of what I have said needs defending as it stands in the truth of the word of God. As I said, it is useless presenting the truth to you, and so I will not even try.
Your attempts at logic would have Mr. Spock rolling on the ground in gut busting laughter. Nothing of what I have said needs defending as it stands in the truth of the word of God. As I said, it is useless presenting the truth to you, and so I will not even try.
Hmmmmmm. I think the whole of Christianity would have Mr. Spock rolling around the floor in gut-busting laughter (although, I can't imagine Spock laughing much about anything). I like Spock.
Anyhow, I believe we all know what it means when one is having to resort to personal attacks.
Would you care to respond to my last post on your thread; The Restoration of All Things?
Thanks.
Last edited by herefornow; 06-20-2010 at 04:35 PM..
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