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Old 06-18-2010, 10:35 AM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The picture you have of God is contradictory to scripture IMO...

But to each his own beliefs I guess. Have you read Paul's other version of the gospel? It's found in 1 Cor. 13...

God IS love... and love doesn't keep a record of wrongs... but you think he does, don't you? So which one is the lie... 1. God is Love or 2. Love doesn't keep a record of wrongs?
Above all else, God loves His own holiness, which is a part of His essence, which is His glory. And He will never compromise His holiness. God's grace can only be extended to man through the filter of His holiness. Man's point of contact with God since the fall in the garden is divine justice. Not love. The believer in Christ is eternally saved. The person who dies in unbelief is eternally lost. God is love, but He is also holy.

 
Old 06-18-2010, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,199 posts, read 20,108,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Furthermore....

"If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." 1 Cor. 13:13

So loving others IS more important than loving God because without loving others one cannot rightly say they love God whom they cannot see...

So that leads me to believe that most Christians today that find reasons why they shouldn't love other really have no love for God either!

It amazes me the length some will go to to defend their skewed version of religion!

Religion first.. loving others second? WHY?

Thanks for letting me rant!
Kat - You sound like a really great person! I am not religious but I see what you are saying. And for the most part - I agree with you. When all people try to do is scare me or threaten me, I stop listening and run as fast as I can in the other direction! I'm begining to see that they are not doing this out of malice but it's hard to remember that! I've been on this forum just trying to understand everyone's different beliefs and thoughts. I think that if all Christians sounded like you - the world would be a better place. Like I said, I'm not religious - but I try to live my life in love. What greater thing is there to experience than love? I have a wonderful life because I am surrounded by people that I love that love me back. I wish you all the best!
 
Old 06-18-2010, 10:39 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,402,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Above all else, God loves His own holiness, which is a part of His essence, which is His glory. And He will never compromise His holiness. God's grace can only be extended to man through the filter of His holiness. Man's point of contact with God since the fall in the garden is divine justice. Not love. The believer in Christ is eternally saved. The person who dies in unbelief is eternally lost. God is love, but He is also holy.
God's love is not in contradiction to His holiness.

You say: "God is love, but... He is also holy." No. No but's needed. God is love and God is holy. They are in perfect harmony. He will make all righteous in due time because He is holy and He is love.
 
Old 06-18-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,548,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Above all else, God loves His own holiness, which is a part of His essence, which is His glory. And He will never compromise His holiness.
Did it ever occur to you that God would change man into the same essence as He is?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God's grace can only be extended to man through the filter of His holiness. Man's point of contact with God since the fall in the garden is divine justice. Not love. The believer in Christ is eternally saved. The person who dies in unbelief is eternally lost. God is love, but He is also holy.
I agree - that justice is a sentence of death, and it's on all of us; ALL OF US. The cross of Calvary paid the debt, but every one of us must have their nature crucified to enter into a pure fellowship with Him.
 
Old 06-18-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Above all else, God loves His own holiness,
I understand you believe that... my OP, however, was asking what part of LOVE is BAD. People, such as yourself seem to think that to talk about salvation one must include sin, judgment, wrath, burning for eternity, hell... I am asking what part of LOVE is not GOD. Even if you found it lacking that someone didn't mention these things (sin, hell, etc.), would saying that eternal life is about knowing Love and the teacher of Love, Jesus, be wrong? Is there an error in that sentence that you can argue?

Let me repeat it: Would saying that eternal life and salvation is about knowing Love and the teacher of Love (Jesus) be a contradiction to scripture?

Quote:
which is a part of His essence, which is His glory. And He will never compromise His holiness.
Now... If someone is HOLY and shows ONLY love... you think that 'compromises his holiness?' How does showing ONLY love and nothing else compromise holiness at all? Isn't it HOLY to LOVE with a pure unadulterated love?

Quote:
God's grace can only be extended to man through the filter of His holiness.
And I still don't understand how it is UNholy to love. What needs filtering in love? Should we temper our love with hate? fear?

Grace IS unadulterated love and forgiveness! Grace is a pardon not earned.

Quote:
Man's point of contact with God since the fall in the garden is divine justice. Not love.
Which is why they didn't GET IT! and here you are saying the very same thing... that God is wrath when God showed through Christ that HE IS LOVE! I feel sorry for you that you think God is wrath and can't get what he wants without threats of violence.

Quote:
The believer in Christ is eternally saved.
Elementary my dear Watson! And remember:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

1 Timothy 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

How sincere is faith when it comes from fear? Paul states that the GOAL of his (their) instruction IS LOVE.

Quote:
The person who dies in unbelief is eternally lost.
I guess then that Jesus couldn't find that person who dies in unbelief....

Jesus said, "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost," about the Jews who were rebellious time and time again. But you don't think Jesus was able to affect the person who dies in unbelief? What then did Jesus accomplish?

Quote:
God is love, but He is also holy.
I agree!
Eph. 1:4 (emphasis mine)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him IN LOVE:

Eph. 4:2 (emphasis mine)
with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another IN LOVE,

I don't condemn you for your misunderstanding but I just wonder what is so scary about LOVE? When is Love UNHOLY?
 
Old 06-18-2010, 11:11 AM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God's love is not in contradiction to His holiness.

You say: "God is love, but... He is also holy." No. No but's needed. God is love and God is holy. They are in perfect harmony. He will make all righteous in due time because He is holy and He is love.
His love and His holiness are in perfect harmony. And His love for who and what He is demands that He will leave in eternal condemnation all who reject His offer of salvation. God cannot act contrary to His nature. If a person does not adjust to the justice of God through faith in Christ for salvation, then the justice of God will adjust to that person in eternal judgment in the lake of fire.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Those who are wise will heed the clear meaning of John 3:36. The foolish will distort its meaning to their own destruction.
 
Old 06-18-2010, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93 View Post
Kat - You sound like a really great person! I am not religious but I see what you are saying. And for the most part - I agree with you. When all people try to do is scare me or threaten me, I stop listening and run as fast as I can in the other direction! I'm begining to see that they are not doing this out of malice but it's hard to remember that!
Yes and that begs the question... does knowing that they are trying to save you from an imaginary (to an unbeliever) hell place or wrath of an unseen being (however real to the believer) forgive the fact that you are being threatened? I mean if I threaten you and then say I just did it because I love you.... you might shrug, but you would no doubt think twice about loving me! So even though they perceive they are doing you a service by telling you God will burn you (or annihilate you) if you don't worship him and be just like them can we call that Love? I surely don't FEEL the love when I see Christians talking about Hell or Sin or Judgment or wrath. And so what do we do?

How can Christians convince people God is Love when they don't have complete faith in that love in the first place, right?

In scripture, John says that God is Love. Christians say one must believe in [love] and have faith in [love].

Quote:
I've been on this forum just trying to understand everyone's different beliefs and thoughts. I think that if all Christians sounded like you - the world would be a better place. Like I said, I'm not religious - but I try to live my life in love. What greater thing is there to experience than love? I have a wonderful life because I am surrounded by people that I love that love me back. I wish you all the best!
Exactly! You do believe in the power of love, and have faith that love will cause great things! Love IS empowering! Thank you for the kind words. I wish you all the best as well!
 
Old 06-18-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
His love and His holiness are in perfect harmony. And His love for who and what He is demands that He will leave in eternal condemnation all who reject His offer of salvation. God cannot act contrary to His nature. If a person does not adjust to the justice of God through faith in Christ for salvation, then the justice of God will adjust to that person in eternal judgment in the lake of fire.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Those who are wise will heed the clear meaning of John 3:36. The foolish will distort its meaning to their own destruction.
Mike's post on 1 John 4:7-8 :
Spoiler
as opposed to "on drugs" in case some missed that play on words

"[Love's] love and [Love's] holiness are in perfect harmony. And [Love's] love for who and what [Love] is demands that [Love] will leave in eternal condemnation all who reject [Love's] offer of salvation. [Love] cannot act contrary to [Love's] nature. If a person does not adjust to the justice of [Love] through faith in [Son of Love] for salvation, then the justice of [Love] will adjust to that person in eternal judgment in the lake of fire.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son [of Love] has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son [of Love] shall not see life, but the wrath of [Love] abides on him."

Much better! I am wearing my LOVEglasses today.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 06-18-2010 at 10:11 PM..
 
Old 06-18-2010, 11:51 AM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Did it ever occur to you that God would change man into the same essence as He is?
God does not change man into the same essence as He is. God's essence is comprised of His Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity. These are what make God God. Man cannot become God. I don't think that's what you meant to say.

Now, the believer is predestined to be ultimately (at the resurrection) transformed into the image of His Son (Romans 8:29), but that refers to the humanity of Christ. Not His diety.

And during his life on this earth the believer who has grown spiritually to the point of spiritual maturity is described in Gal 4:19 as 'Christ formed in you,' (experiential sanctification).And again, that is a reference to the humanity of Christ.

These are things having to do with positional sanctification (at the moment of salvation), experiential sanctification (the result of spiritual growth), and ultimate sanctification (occurs at the point of the body being resurrected).

The unbeliever is the recipient of NONE of this. He is instead, the recipient of God's eternal judgment in the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
 
Old 06-18-2010, 11:55 AM
 
7,092 posts, read 5,451,687 times
Reputation: 4920
After all is gone, what is left is faith, hope, and Love.

The greatest of these is Love.
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