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Old 06-25-2010, 10:13 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,675,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Have they ever told a lie? Have they ever hated people? Have they ever dishonored their parents? Have they loved God with all their heart, soul and strength? IOW, have they kept God's law perfectly? If they have disobeyed any of these laws, then it was a deliberate, conscious refusal. Even if they don't have knowledge of the Mosaic law, the work of the law is written on their hearts, so all people innately know right from wrong.

Scripture clearly states that all have sinned, so all people have violated these moral codes. Therefore, the teen who died in a car wreck, in your example, is not really a "good person" when held up to the standard of God's law.
I didn't realize I was talking to someone who does not understand grace. No use in discussing anything else since it would not get through to you.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,429 posts, read 8,137,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
Ah. Pascal's Wager.

So you believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god, but one who is too stupid to figure out when you're just pretending to believe in him to save your a s s from hell.

I get it.
I don't believe in that... I was explaining that that is the state of being which ultimately keeps the modern Christian chained to a belief in hell and why they tell others that if they don't believe in hell they will end up there.

It is sad. And makes very little sense. IMO
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,429 posts, read 8,137,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Have they ever told a lie? Have they ever hated people? Have they ever dishonored their parents? Have they loved God with all their heart, soul and strength? IOW, have they kept God's law perfectly? If they have disobeyed any of these laws, then it was a deliberate, conscious refusal. Even if they don't have knowledge of the Mosaic law, the work of the law is written on their hearts, so all people innately know right from wrong.

Scripture clearly states that all have sinned, so all people have violated these moral codes. Therefore, the teen who died in a car wreck, in your example, is not really a "good person" when held up to the standard of God's law.
So do they have to be a good person or deliberately and consciously accept God? If they know in their hearts right from wrong then it is not about accepting salvation or refusal... it is about obeying the same set of laws that you have made mandatory for yourself? right?

Can you tell me why, inthe parable of the vineyard workers, all got paid the same amount for their work yet some didn't work very long at all?

That was fair according to the boss... what business is it of ours if God wishes to be generous and make the first last and the last first. or to give all the same amount for their different labors?
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
So you know for a fact that every human being who has not been taught the particulars of your moral code, as set forth in your bible, has deliberately and consciously disobeyed what your god would have told them to do if they had read it in your bible.
Yes, I do know for a fact, and you know for a fact as well. But you are overlooking something: It's not that God "would have told them to do if they had read it in your Bible" and it's not that the moral code is just "set forth in [my] bible" alone. The work of the law is written on everyone's heart. Everyone has an innate sense of right and wrong, even people who have never seen a Bible. Your mistake here is to think that special revelation (written Scripture) is the only form of revelation. General revelation is another kind, and it extends to all people everywhere. God has impressed upon all people a sense of deity, as evidenced in a universal drive to worship, as well as a sense of morality, as evidenced in a universal disapproval of selfishness.

Everyone does things that they know to be wrong, and they do so deliberately and consciously. There is nobody who has never violated the law of God, with the exception of Christ.

Quote:
As I say, you are unqualified to make any kind of moral judgments of any person's actions.
If that is true, then you are not qualified either, in which case you are not qualified to make a moral judgment on whether they are innocent.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:38 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,543,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Yes, I do know for a fact, and you know for a fact as well. But you are overlooking something: It's not that God "would have told them to do if they had read it in your Bible" and it's not that the moral code is just "set forth in [my] bible" alone. The work of the law is written on everyone's heart. Everyone has an innate sense of right and wrong, even people who have never seen a Bible. Your mistake here is to think that special revelation (written Scripture) is the only form of revelation. General revelation is another kind, and it extends to all people everywhere. God has impressed upon all people a sense of deity, as evidenced in a universal drive to worship, as well as a sense of morality, as evidenced in a universal disapproval of selfishness.

Everyone does things that they know to be wrong, and they do so deliberately and consciously. There is nobody who has never violated the law of God, with the exception of Christ.



If that is true, then you are not qualified either, in which case you are not qualified to make a moral judgment on whether they are innocent.


The problem here is that I agree that every human being is born with some sense of right and wrong, people are shaped into a mindset that tends to assert a religious ideology that someone must comform to a certain religious way of thinking and if they don't it is asserted that they will suffer a certain fate of endless misery.

I mean I have been told I am damned to hell because I do not agree with the trinity theology even though I accept Christ as my saviour.

I accept christ as my saviour through the perspective that I have considering my upbringing. However, on a spiritual standpoint, Love is the only issue that bible says is important.

It even talks in a manner that if you do such and such and such but have no love it is all meaningless.

In the June thread, spiritually on a religious comparison June is saved.

Yes, of course, she has rejected "religious assertions" but she embraces the only thing that at the end of the day counts a hill of beans.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:43 AM
 
702 posts, read 793,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I didn't realize I was talking to someone who does not understand grace. No use in discussing anything else since it would not get through to you.
I understand grace just fine. The enormity of hell shows how great God's grace and salvation are. If I stumble and risk scraping my knee, and you go two feet out of your way to prevent that minor pain, I would thank you politely, but I would not consider your rescue to be all that fantastic because all you did was save me from a knee scrape. On the other hand, if you died saving me from certain death, then I would consider your rescue to be monumental. The severity of what one is saved from corresponds to the greatness of the rescue.

What is ironic here is that the claim that punishment is not eternal is what actually devalues and demeans grace because it posits the error that what Christ did on the cross, we sinners can also accomplish for ourselves in the next life, by going through a temporary period of cleansing. In that case, Christ is not the only way to the Father, and he is not doing anything for us that we could not do for ourselves. Is that so great a salvation?

That, however, is anything but the Gospel. I'm sorry, Bright Hope, but it is you who do not understand grace.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:04 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,675,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I understand grace just fine. The enormity of hell shows how great God's grace and salvation are. If I stumble and risk scraping my knee, and you go two feet out of your way to prevent that minor pain, I would thank you politely, but I would not consider your rescue to be all that fantastic because all you did was save me from a knee scrape. On the other hand, if you died saving me from certain death, then I would consider your rescue to be monumental. The severity of what one is saved from corresponds to the greatness of the rescue.

What is ironic here is that the claim that punishment is not eternal is what actually devalues and demeans grace because it posits the error that what Christ did on the cross, we sinners can also accomplish for ourselves in the next life, by going through a temporary period of cleansing. In that case, Christ is not the only way to the Father, and he is not doing anything for us that we could not do for ourselves. Is that so great a salvation?

That, however, is anything but the Gospel. I'm sorry, Bright Hope, but it is you who do not understand grace.
You have it totally backwards and you're confused. UR people do not say we can accomplish our own salvation AT ALL - in this life or in the next life. We say Christ already accomplished it on the cross. Sinners are like unconscious people who need to be saved. There is absolutely nothing they can do to save themselves.

I disagree somewhat with, "The severity of what one is saved from corresponds to the greatness of the rescue." That has some merit when you compare a house fire to a skinned knee. However, if a house is on fire and a firefighter goes into the house and finds someone walking out, and picks them up to carry them the rest of the way, there was no real need for the rescue. However, if the person has already become unconscious and cannot save himself and the firefighter picks him up and carries him to safety, that's a true rescue. In both cases, they were saved from being burned up. In one case the person can save himself. In the other case, he cannot.

We cannot save ourselves. Our own belief system is not adequate to save us. Only God, through the sacrifice of his Son, can save us. He does the saving while we are "yet sinners"/"unconsious."

P.S. We reap what we sow. UR does not deny that. No one sows setting someone on fire forever, so no one can reap that.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,615,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post

Universalists also make the error of underestimating sin. The more I discuss this issue with them, the more I realize that they reject eternal punishment as unfair because they don't realize how horrific sin really is in the eyes of a good, holy God.
Bingo. You hit the nail on the head, but I don't think it's just universalists that don't realize how horrific sin really is in the eyes of a good, Holy God. I think we all don't fully understand how horrific sin is to Him, but I agree that universalists underestimate sin which is why they think hell is unfair. When the Israelites sacrificed animals they were sensitized to the importance of their sin and guilt. Our culture's casual attitude toward sin ignores the cost of sin and need for repentance and restoration.

Last edited by CantWait2Leave; 06-25-2010 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,514 posts, read 1,612,850 times
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Quote:
The work of the law is written on everyone's heart. Everyone has an innate sense of right and wrong, even people who have never seen a Bible.
I totally agree with you here; my introduction in this thread was based on this innate sense of right and wrong (which you called an appeal to emotion), interestingly virtually all Agnostics/Atheists who haven't been indoctrinated by "pseudochristian" teachings abhor the doctrine of everlasting torment, most likely because their innate sense of right and wrong tells them it is evil, maybe think about that
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:34 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,146,215 times
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Jremy-wow someone else who agrees with me; but you take the heat, hahaha. The issue is knowledge, knowing-it always is. Where does one get it? Now in our day and age? In the gut I suppose, sittin' on the ol' john with cramps, listening to the Beatles, whatever. The resistance to theology is founded here. The subjective is private and does not lend itself to an ology except for ego; not social, not church. This finds a lot of followers as there is not much effort, what ever one comes up with and warms the bowels will do. Science doesn't work well this way, doctoring, accounting, military tactics, etc. But when it come to forever, its the best since white bread.
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