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Old 06-22-2010, 06:16 AM
 
1,194 posts, read 735,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I make no justifications. I simply state that all who die without Christ are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. And there are many on this forum, and in this country as a whole, who are merely professing Christians, but they are not saved. If they do not come to know Christ before they die, then they are eternally lost. This is scripturally correct and not in the least bit judgmental. Many of you universalists have never understood the issue in salvation, and if you die without coming to your senses concerning the truth, then the consequences are on your heads. I tell it like it is. Your approval is not required or sought after.

Mike555...first, you make a pulpit denial..."I make no justifications"...last, you make justification for what you are in denial of..."Your approval is not required or sought after"...since this is a public forum apart from the ability to know one by their fruits, unless your name is Mike555 and then you know the heart of professing Christians that are not really saved, and knowing that not one person tapping letters out on this forum can correctly sit in the seat of judgment having sinned against even one command of The Royal Law of Liberty otherwise known as The Ten Commandments, we, as a little witness, will gladly give away our approval for Mike555 to be found as one of us...The Blessings of The Eternal bring you joy.
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Old 06-22-2010, 06:36 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,747,770 times
Reputation: 58197
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
PCamps, can I jump in and throw my 2 cents in this, you know i am not an ETer or URer . . .

You said "The message is believe on the Son of God" . . . this is the most important part of your message, the URers message, and what I believe.

Believe on the Son of God . . . where the differences are as we all know is . . . the part of the UR's belief that it is not necessary to believe in the Son of God to get eternal life . . . but everyone who ever lived, who heard the truth and knowingly made a mental decision to not take up the Cross, they too, will be saved . . .that's the main dividing part and where things get hot here.

The other thing is this . . I think this is good, the constant back and for between us . . . you see, I have learned so much from both sides . . . (yes, there is bickering, yelling, sarcasm thrown in), but for the most part . . . it really provides a very good education in many areas.

Look, Ilene Wright when from staunch ETer to URer . . . and I she seems very peaceful and in a good place with her new belief . . . so alot of good comes from these discussions for people here.

I personally have learned alot about translations, different scriptures, the background and history of the church, certain people in the Bible, scripture I didn't know, and discussions her led me to different bible studies
I probably would have never done.
Hi Lifesigns,

You're absolutely right....there is some good that comes out of these sometimes heated debates. I WAS a staunch ETer, and now, thanks to the grace of God, I have learned the Truth!! I had never heard of UR, although in my heart of hearts I was always UR, just didn't know the term. I never really understood ET and it just never made sense to me but it was how I was "taught" and that's hard to break away from. I thought I had to save the world because of ET....I feared for EVERYONE.

That right there.......FEAR........should send up major red flags to the ETers. It causes people to commit some horrible acts, like killing their children before the "age of accountability" and the likes to avoid the ET hell. And when you think about it, isn't that the compassionate thing to do when you believe your loved ones are going to burn for all of eternity? It's a horrendous belief and one that is losing it's grip......praise God!!

If it wasn't for C-D I would not have the knowledge that I have now because even as an ETer it sent me on many scriptural journeys and I learned things that I didn't know before. The UR's also sent me on a journey to investigate what they were saying.....before I would not even listen or hear ANY of what they were saying.....I thought the devil would invade my mind and spirit if I did such a thing. But I dropped the attitude for a while and really LISTENED. They (the UR's) were most gracious in answering all of my endless questions and provided scripture to back up what they were saying!!! UR has changed my life.....I AM at peace, I have more peace, abundantly more, than I ever did as an ETer. Peace in the knowledge that I have finally learned the TRUTH and that truth really is "good news".......it's GREAT NEWS!!!

I would like to provide the link to the thread that helped me along in this journey, which I am still on and still learning:

Universalists: Please Explain Why You Believe Like You Do

It's a loooooong thread, but definitely worth the read. HotinAZ read the whole thing and he was impressed.

To God be the Glory....AMEN!!!
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Old 06-22-2010, 06:59 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Hi Lifesigns,

You're absolutely right....there is some good that comes out of these sometimes heated debates. I WAS a staunch ETer, and now, thanks to the grace of God, I have learned the Truth!! I had never heard of UR, although in my heart of hearts I was always UR, just didn't know the term. I never really understood ET and it just never made sense to me but it was how I was "taught" and that's hard to break away from. I thought I had to save the world because of ET....I feared for EVERYONE.

That right there.......FEAR........should send up major red flags to the ETers.
Not necessarily. Not all fear is bad. Fear can be good. Fear of hell is definitely a good thing. Because some have abused it does not mean it is wrong. That's like saying that we should ban aspirin because sometimes people take too many.

Quote:
It causes people to commit some horrible acts, like killing their children before the "age of accountability" and the likes to avoid the ET hell.
I've never even heard of this. Could you provide some source(s) to substantiate this?

Quote:
And when you think about it, isn't that the compassionate thing to do when you believe your loved ones are going to burn for all of eternity? It's a horrendous belief and one that is losing it's grip......praise God!!
Well, the argument could be made the other way around. Warning people about hell is an act of compassion and love--all the more so since it means risking rejection because the truth is unpleasant.

As to whether ET is losing its grip, I doubt it.

Quote:
If it wasn't for C-D I would not have the knowledge that I have now because even as an ETer it sent me on many scriptural journeys and I learned things that I didn't know before. The UR's also sent me on a journey to investigate what they were saying.....before I would not even listen or hear ANY of what they were saying.....I thought the devil would invade my mind and spirit if I did such a thing. But I dropped the attitude for a while and really LISTENED. They (the UR's) were most gracious in answering all of my endless questions and provided scripture to back up what they were saying!!!
Providing Scripture is one thing; providing it in a manner that is not proof-texting, does not ignore the original language, and does not ignore the morphology of language, is quite another. People in the UR camp consistently ignore context, ignore the full range of meanings of words, and redefine words, even ignoring the vast majority of lexicons in order to hold on to their preferred definition. I saw some of this when I posted my thoughts about the woe that Judas faced. The objections that were brought up were absolutely untenable and fell apart on even slight scrutiny. That text cannot be ignored. If you value the word of God and are willing to submit to it, I urge you to consider that text, as well as Jesus' teaching on the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, very closely. Here are the links to the two posts:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/14557916-post36.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/14562051-post59.html

Quote:
UR has changed my life.....I AM at peace, I have more peace, abundantly more, than I ever did as an ETer. Peace in the knowledge that I have finally learned the TRUTH and that truth really is "good news".......it's GREAT NEWS!!!
The question for any of us is not whether we feel peace but whether we are at peace with God. Just because a particular doctrine makes us feel at peace should mean very little to us given the deceitful nature of our hearts.
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Old 06-22-2010, 07:24 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,747,770 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Not necessarily. Not all fear is bad. Fear can be good. Fear of hell is definitely a good thing. Because some have abused it does not mean it is wrong. That's like saying that we should ban aspirin because sometimes people take too many.
That's a really bad analogy. Fear is not the way to bring people into the fold, and in my experience the threats of hell only turn people away. It turned me away from God for a very long time. I can only say that I wish I had investigated the truth of the matter back then, instead of holding onto the false teaching of ET. My life would have been so much different.

Quote:
I've never even heard of this. Could you provide some source(s) to substantiate this?
Don't you remember the woman who killed all 5 of her children by drowning them to save them from hell? And I'm sure there are many more stories like that one. I don't remember her name right now but it was all over the news and talk shows.

Quote:
Well, the argument could be made the other way around. Warning people about hell is an act of compassion and love--all the more so since it means risking rejection because the truth is unpleasant.

As to whether ET is losing its grip, I doubt it.
Warning people about a hell that doesn't exist is cruel and unnecessary. We are to teach the love of Jesus Christ and His saving grace, not push people away by telling them they're going to burn forever if they don't do what you say. Yeah, that really works. And it is my prayer and evidence by way of this forum shows that ET is on it's way out. It's an antiquated fear tactic that should have never been taught. It is a man-made teaching that is not biblical.

Quote:
Providing Scripture is one thing; providing it in a manner that is not proof-texting, does not ignore the original language, and does not ignore the morphology of language, is quite another. People in the UR camp consistently ignore context, ignore the full range of meanings of words, and redefine words, even ignoring the vast majority of lexicons in order to hold on to their preferred definition. I saw some of this when I posted my thoughts about the woe that Judas faced. The objections that were brought up were absolutely untenable and fell apart on even slight scrutiny. That text cannot be ignored. If you value the word of God and are willing to submit to it, I urge you to consider that text, as well as Jesus' teaching on the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, very closely. Here are the links to the two posts:
Providing sound scripture is part of UR....providing twisted scripture is part of the ET teaching. We can go back and forth all day about context but there are scriptures that clearly teach UR that ETer's just can't accept. Yes context matters, but some scriptures stand alone in their meaning and it's been my experience since I'm on the UR side of the fence now that they are not the ones twisting scripture, it is the ET camp. It's the only way to justify the teaching of ET.

Quote:
The question for any of us is not whether we feel peace but whether we are at peace with God. Just because a particular doctrine makes us feel at peace should mean very little to us given the deceitful nature of our hearts.
You can question my peace all you want but what I have experienced is completely between myself and God. No one coerced me or convinced me of anything. The belief was always there, but I had been severely brain-washed by family members who are staunch ETer's out of ignorance and lack of taking responsibility to search out the scriptures for the truth. That's all there is to it. Ignorance and a failure to seek the truth.
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Old 06-22-2010, 07:27 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,682,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Universalists say that once they received the "truth", they were filled with so much love. Where is this love? I don't see it in your posts or their posts. If you want people to believe what you say, you need to practice what you preach. You are absolutely correct that you will face God one day and He will judge you for deliberately rejecting the Truth shown to you. It won't be pretty.

You are right, it will not be pretty, I have experienced Gods wrath and I have suffered, but he made me better, thats what God does. God is not finsihed with me yet, so when you charge me with not having the love you expect, you are right, but I have never claimed to have it.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:14 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,993 times
Reputation: 87
[quote=Ilene Wright;14721285]
Quote:

That's a really bad analogy.
Not really. It makes the point: Abuse of something is not an argument against it. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Your reasoning was fallacious, Ilene. All that abuse proves is that there's something wrong with the abuser, not with the thing being abused. Other doctrines in the Bible have been abused, such as the grace of God and the law, but that does not mean we should abandon them.

Quote:
Fear is not the way to bring people into the fold, and in my experience the threats of hell only turn people away.
Ilene, two problems: 1) The fear of God is the way to bring people into the fold. There is more to it than fear, of course. Your conception of fear might be other than what the Bible teaches, and I strongly suspect that it is because the Scriptures affirm the fear of the Lord as a good thing (Prov. 1:7, 9:10) that leads to relationship with God. 2) Neither your experience nor my experience has any authority whatsoever. None at all. Zilch. Nada. Nichts. But if you really think that it has weight, then my conversion experience involved a sermon about hell and judgment. That sermon drove me to God in repentance, coupled with a firm conviction--brought about by the Holy Spirit--of his mercy and love. If you think personal experience means anything, then you should consider mine.

Quote:
It turned me away from God for a very long time.
Sorry, I think Scripture will not agree with you on that. We turn away from God because we choose to sin, because we hate the light (John 3:20). We should never blame that rebellion on anything but ourselves.

Quote:
Don't you remember the woman who killed all 5 of her children by drowning them to save them from hell? And I'm sure there are many more stories like that one. I don't remember her name right now but it was all over the news and talk shows.
No, I don't recall that. Do you have a news source for it? And even if it's true, it proves nothing. Someone who goes to that extreme is probably unbalanced to begin with. Do you really want to use extreme examples to make your case? It doesn't make your case look very strong, though, in all honesty.

You're "sure there are many more stories like that one"? Really? Have you collected all these news stories and accumulated a sufficient number to prove your case? Even if you did, all it would prove is that there are lots of unbalanced people out there.

Quote:
And it is my prayer and evidence by way of this forum shows that ET is on it's way out.
Impossible. The word of God will not perish.

Quote:
It's an antiquated fear tactic that should have never been taught.
When you say "antiquated," you make it sound as if it has been used as a fear tactic throughout history. If that is what you meant, again, do you have sources to back up your claim, or are you merely making assertions that have no basis in fact? If the latter, how can you be comfortable with deciding what to believe in such an inadequate manner?

Quote:
Providing sound scripture is part of UR....providing twisted scripture is part of the ET teaching.
Okay, fair enough. Show me how I have twisted Scriptures in my explanations of Jesus' teaching about Judas' fate and the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I provided the links to those two posts in my last response to you.

Quote:
You can question my peace all you want but what I have experienced is completely between myself and God.
That subjective quality is precisely what makes it lack authority. Christian truth is based on an objective text, not subjective feelings. Our feelings are not the measure of truth; revelation is. The fact that you place such a strong emphasis on how you feel shows me why you've accepted UR.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Sorry, I think Scripture will not agree with you on that. We turn away from God because we choose to sin, because we hate the light (John 3:20). We should never blame that rebellion on anything but ourselves.
Exactly, it is easy to blame the rejection of God on the fact that he/she disagrees with something in the Bible. Rejection is rejection regardless of the excuse. UR omits huge parts of the text in the Bible, so of course it appears more appealing to the unbelieving masses who do not want to make the commitment of faith.


Quote:
No, I don't recall that. Do you have a news source for it? And even if it's true, it proves nothing. Someone who goes to that extreme is probably unbalanced to begin with
There was a case in Texas where a mentally ill woman murdered her children because she thought she was saving them from hell. I have heard the URs use this example over and over again in order to smear believers.
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:56 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,993 times
Reputation: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Exactly, it is easy to blame the rejection of God on the fact that he/she disagrees with something in the Bible. Rejection is rejection regardless of the excuse. UR omits huge parts of the text in the Bible, so of course it appears more appealing to the unbelieving masses who do not want to make the commitment of faith.
Yes. It's easy to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt by believing that we had some legitimate excuse to reject God. Stories like Ilene's are not uncommon (not just in reference to hell), and every time I hear one, the red flag goes up because it is so contrary to God's revelation about human nature. Although there is some correlation between our upbringing and our spiritual life, ultimately we reject God because we rebel against him by nature. Being unaware of this in one's own experience is not a good sign.

Quote:
There was a case in Texas where a mentally ill woman murdered her children because she thought she was saving them from hell. I have heard the URs use this example over and over again in order to smear believers.
The very fact that it is used so heavily is a sure sign that those who so use it don't have a leg to stand on. An honest appraiser of the issue will examine Scripture in depth, not resort to emotional appeals and examples of extreme behavior as if they were somehow representative of those who believe in ET.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:09 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,682,496 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Yes. It's easy to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt by believing that we had some legitimate excuse to reject God. Stories like Ilene's are not uncommon (not just in reference to hell), and every time I hear one, the red flag goes up because it is so contrary to God's revelation about human nature. Although there is some correlation between our upbringing and our spiritual life, ultimately we reject God because we rebel against him by nature. Being unaware of this in one's own experience is not a good sign.

The very fact that it is used so heavily is a sure sign that those who so use it don't have a leg to stand on. An honest appraiser of the issue will examine Scripture in depth, not resort to emotional appeals and examples of extreme behavior as if they were somehow representative of those who believe in ET.

Actually if you are consistant in your approach you will know that simply because someone uses a poor argument it actually has no bearing upon a point of view being correct or incorrect, so you are actually using the same poor reasoning that you accuse someone else of doing.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:36 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy
The very fact that it is used so heavily is a sure sign that those who so use it don't have a leg to stand on. An honest appraiser of the issue will examine Scripture in depth, not resort to emotional appeals and examples of extreme behavior as if they were somehow representative of those who believe in ET.
Actually if you are consistant in your approach you will know that simply because someone uses a poor argument it actually has no bearing upon a point of view being correct or incorrect, so you are actually using the same poor reasoning that you accuse someone else of doing.
No, I didn't. Reread my post carefully. What I was driving at was that the use of that particular argument is a reflection of the mindset of the person using it, hence my use of the phrase "honest appraiser" to indicate the opposite attitude. Since they don't search and study thoroughly in order to arrive at a firm basis for their conclusions, they rely on tactics that are sensational and emotional. The one who wants to be thorough, however, will have a different attitude.
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