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Old 06-22-2010, 09:46 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
No, I didn't. Reread my post carefully. What I was driving at was that the use of that particular argument is a reflection of the mindset of the person using it, hence my use of the phrase "honest appraiser" to indicate the opposite attitude. Since they don't search and study thoroughly in order to arrive at a firm basis for their conclusions, they rely on tactics that are sensational and emotional. The one who wants to be thorough, however, will have a different attitude.

Actually you have, you assess that someones use of an argument is based upon why you believe they use it and conclude that they cannot be searching and studying thoroughly because of your own beliefs.

Not everyone actually has instruction in argumentative terms and what may be to you an emotional appeal is a reasoned and thought out point of view to someone else. Even if it is incorrect, the motive and process behind it is often different than what you assert is true.

I come from a back ground where there is so much fear preached in the name of God that I can see how easy it is to associate andreas behavior with the result of such teachings and have seen people driven to act out from that fear.

My own mother may have treated me how she did because of a deeper rooted problem than the churches teaching that we went to, however, anyone who knows my mom and ignores the influence of a churches teaching on my mother is a fool.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Yes. It's easy to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt by believing that we had some legitimate excuse to reject God. Stories like Ilene's are not uncommon (not just in reference to hell), and every time I hear one, the red flag goes up because it is so contrary to God's revelation about human nature. Although there is some correlation between our upbringing and our spiritual life, ultimately we reject God because we rebel against him by nature. Being unaware of this in one's own experience is not a good sign.

The very fact that it is used so heavily is a sure sign that those who so use it don't have a leg to stand on. An honest appraiser of the issue will examine Scripture in depth, not resort to emotional appeals and examples of extreme behavior as if they were somehow representative of those who believe in ET.
When i posted that my friend died of cancer, not only did the ETers not have a leg to stand on--they didn't even try!
God is love. Love does not keep track of sins.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
When i posted that my friend died of cancer, not only did the ETers not have a leg to stand on--they didn't even try!
God is love. Love does not keep track of sins.

Blessings,
brian
Your question about your unbeliving friend's death was this: "should I tell his parents that their son is in hell?".

And the obvious answer was: "why would you want to do that the day after their son's death"?
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:18 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Your question about your unbeliving friend's death was this: "should I tell his parents that their son is in hell?".

And the obvious answer was: "why would you want to do that the day after their son's death"?

If it is true, why wouldn't you want to? Shouldn't the truth of God bring peace?
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:45 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Actually you have, you assess that someones use of an argument is based upon why you believe they use it and conclude that they cannot be searching and studying thoroughly because of your own beliefs.
No, not my own beliefs, but the facts. The use of those types of "arguments," coupled with the exclusion of thorough study, gives away their mindset. Sorry, this is not about my beliefs, as if this were all just coming from my own head. The method of argumentation that people use speaks for itself. Making me the issue won't change that.

Quote:
Not everyone actually has instruction in argumentative terms and what may be to you an emotional appeal is a reasoned and thought out point of view to someone else. Even if it is incorrect, the motive and process behind it is often different than what you assert is true.
An emotional appeal is an emotional appeal whether someone means it to be so or not: Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:57 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
When i posted that my friend died of cancer, not only did the ETers not have a leg to stand on--they didn't even try!
A leg to stand on in what way? What are you talking about?

Quote:
God is love. Love does not keep track of sins.

Blessings,
brian
Any god that is a god of love only, is not the God revealed to us in Scripture. This UR argument has been used so much, and yet it is actually proof of the weakness of the position: an insistence upon incompleteness in this case, the insistence on a limited view of God's attributes. Statements like yours, "God is love. Love does not keep track of sins," are brought out in triumph as if they were the last word on the subject, while simultaneously refusing or failing to consider God's other attributes, namely, justice and holiness. A half-truth is a whole lie, as the saying goes.

Also, your statement that God does not keep track of sins poses serious problems for you if you believe that the atonement of Christ was necessary. If God did not keep track of sins, then the laying of the punishment for those sins on Christ would have been unnecessary. What you are essentially arguing for is the idea that God does not punish sin.

Love does not eliminate God's justice. If we would frown on a human judge who let his guilty son go free simply because he loved him, how much more unacceptable is the idea that God's love would lead him to overturn justice in the same way.

Going with the analogy of a judge and his guilty son, apply that to God's treatment of Jesus on the cross. God surely loved Jesus Christ, and yet he poured out his wrath on Christ for sins. God's love does not eliminate His justice.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 631,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Yes. It's easy to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt by believing that we had some legitimate excuse to reject God. Stories like Ilene's are not uncommon (not just in reference to hell), and every time I hear one, the red flag goes up because it is so contrary to God's revelation about human nature. Although there is some correlation between our upbringing and our spiritual life, ultimately we reject God because we rebel against him by nature. Being unaware of this in one's own experience is not a good sign.

The very fact that it is used so heavily is a sure sign that those who so use it don't have a leg to stand on. An honest appraiser of the issue will examine Scripture in depth, not resort to emotional appeals and examples of extreme behavior as if they were somehow representative of those who believe in ET.
Oh, my husband has not been unfaithful but.... I hate him(murder) and I know Jesus said do not divorce except marital unfaithfulness, but........she divorces him. Not believing God can give love for her husband. Lives by feelings, ignores God and His word, immediately separated from God, head spinning, I'm happy now. It feels right, I'm at peace and happy. Now I can look for another one after 3 marriages. Agree, not a good sign, repetition of unbelief. Well said J.

God Bless,
Mercy
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:08 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
No, not my own beliefs, but the facts. The use of those types of "arguments," coupled with the exclusion of thorough study, gives away their mindset. Sorry, this is not about my beliefs, as if this were all just coming from my own head. The method of argumentation that people use speaks for itself. Making me the issue won't change that.

An emotional appeal is an emotional appeal whether someone means it to be so or not: Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are missing the point.

A persons mindset does not prevent the theological position they agree with to be true or untrue, that is the position you are trying to leverage.

In another one of your posts you mention that someone doing this makes the UR position weak, and actually it doesn't. It only means not everyone is as precise as you think you are when it comes to case building.

So in your line of reasoning here you do not actually make your theological stance more valid, you only point out that someones argument doesn't work to support theirs, then you raise the fallacy that because of what you point out a theological stance is showing it's weakness.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:24 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
Reputation: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Oh, my husband has not been unfaithful but.... I hate him(murder) and I know Jesus said do not divorce except marital unfaithfulness, but........she divorces him. Not believing God can give love for her husband. Lives by feelings, ignores God and His word, immediately separated from God, head spinning, I'm happy now. It feels right, I'm at peace and happy. Now I can look for another one after 3 marriages. Agree, not a good sign, repetition of unbelief. Well said J.

God Bless,
Mercy
Yes. If we make our subjective feelings and personal experiences the measure of what we believe, then we can justify any belief, even ones with harmful consequences. Placing emphasis on those feelings to the exclusion of God's objective revelation is a sure sign of rebellion against that revelation, that one has refused to consult that revelation in detail to think God's thoughts after him. It's not that feelings are wrong, of course, but to make momentous decisions about spiritual beliefs based on feelings of peace or personal experiences is dangerous. I marvel at how much of Christendom is infected with this level of subjectivity. We have gradually moved away from reliance on an objective text for our beliefs toward reliance on the inner person for our beliefs, as if religion were determined by our own consciousness. That is not Christianity. Christianity is based on historical events along with teachings, bothof which are recorded for us in an objective text.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,684,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Yes. If we make our subjective feelings and personal experiences the measure of what we believe, then we can justify any belief, even ones with harmful consequences. Placing emphasis on those feelings to the exclusion of God's objective revelation is a sure sign of rebellion against that revelation, that one has refused to consult that revelation in detail to think God's thoughts after him. It's not that feelings are wrong, of course, but to make momentous decisions about spiritual beliefs based on feelings of peace or personal experiences is dangerous. I marvel at how much of Christendom is infected with this level of subjectivity. We have gradually moved away from reliance on an objective text for our beliefs toward reliance on the inner person for our beliefs, as if religion were determined by our own consciousness. That is not Christianity. Christianity is based on historical events along with teachings, bothof which are recorded for us in an objective text.
Jremy I wish I could rep you again. Keep preaching the truth! Great job!
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